Mizuno Pro lie angles all out

Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#1
Hello - Hope this is the correct forum for this?
I have just received a new set of the above. When i had the lie angles checked they were all over the place. Averaging 2Degree up right some even at 3.5 degree. Lofts were not bad but wedge was 2 degree more lofted.
My question is how does a set get so badly set up when the order was clearly standard loft and lies? Also 4 grips were so badly put on (out of line) ive had to get them reset.Is it normal a new set of fitted irons are so badly prepared?
 
Joined
Sep 14, 2022
Local club/country
United States
Irons
Mizuno MP-29 3-PW with Rifle TF 6.5 (awaiting Mizuno Pro 223 4-GW with Nippon 105 X-Stiff)
Driver
Mizuno ST-Z 220 9.5* at 7.5* with Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (Replaced Callaway FT-9 Tour 9* with Fubuki Tour 63 Stiff)
#2
I'd be disappointed if the grips were out of whack significantly. There's not a great reason for that.

As for the rest, given the possibility for error in measuring loft/lie (it sounds like 1 to 1.5 degrees +/- in this case) I'd do the same thing people do with doctors... Get a second opinion. I get the impression the forgings are not perfect and are sorted so they start close to what is required for an order, and even after adjustment they won't be perfect. There will also be variation between measurement devices. If the clubs were properly put in the machine 1 degree at 12 inches (304.8 mm) away is about 0.2 inches (5.08 mm) of change. If the check point is closer to the head things only get harder.

I'm not saying the measurements are wrong. It's entirely possible Mizuno screwed up, but I do think I'd get them checked again by another individual. I would be tempted to hit them first on a launch monitor to see if the data supports the measurements. If they gap appropriately and are consistent for you which is more important... The measurement or the result?

If all the data points to there being a problem, and I ordered them through a fitter, I'd ask them to deal with it. If you went direct then ask Mizuno how they'd like to proceed.

Good luck.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#3
Hi thanks for your reply mate. We checked the loft 3 times and every time came out massively wrong - the pro who checked them is 25 years exp in fitting Some were 3.5 degrees upright from the standard lie angle i wanted. The grips were actually all over the place once the place. The whole set stunk of poor attention to detail. The pro has approached the mizuno rep who is now on holiday. I just think of all manufacturers Mizuno should be the best at getting it spot on. So few of us play them you would have thought they might take the care you expect from Mizuno. Just a shambles and absolutely no way of contacting Mizuno UK direct i can find. thanks for your reply though - appreciate the time you took to make it.
 

Bonobobananas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
HCP
7.1
Local club/country
England
Irons
Titleist T100s 😬
Driver
TM Stealth 2+
#4
Hey there. Where did you get them from? May be that the grips were put on by the vendors rather than Mizuno, I’d be disappointed with this kind of quality control if it was Mizuno with the full assembly. This is the right place to speak to the Mizuno reps. @MPX may be able to advise further.
 

MPX

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
HCP
6
Local club/country
UK
Irons
JPX919 Hot Metal Pro 4-PW (C Taper Lite stiff), T20 wedges chrome - 50 / 56
Driver
ST-Z driver, ST200x 3wood, ST200x 5 wood
#5
Hi there.

This is always a contentious one. Sometimes when i follow up on these - i conclude that independent builders/fitters tend to like to bash major manufacturers (not saying that's the case here). When we do get the clubs back and check, they're pretty much spot on. Generally comes down to different measuring equipment and the definition of 'standard'. Our 2 degrees up is just relative to Mizuno standard, which is different to another manufacturer's or independent club builders standard. Throw in a totally different machine and its rare anything matches up. Which sounds like a mess - but if you are fitted the Mizuno way, with a Mizuno fitter, you'll get the right lie angle (regardless of what we all call it).

The grips are fitted using a laser for alignment. So have no explanation for that. Did they definitely get built by us in Scotland?
 

DennisMiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Miami, Florida
HCP
Old Age
Local club/country
Killian Greens Golf Club
#6
I'll repeat the question Bonobobonanas asked above... Where did you buy them? No offense, but are you sure it was it a Mizuno dealer?

For as long as I've been participating in this forum, I've heard here and there of a club being off slightly, mostly used forged irons that required adjustment back to some relevant spec. Occasionally, one iron in a new set isn't quite up to the spec it should be.

But, I've never heard of a whole set being as messed up as you describe. I'll be interested to hear the results of them being checked out and what can be done to help you.
 
Joined
Sep 14, 2022
Local club/country
United States
Irons
Mizuno MP-29 3-PW with Rifle TF 6.5 (awaiting Mizuno Pro 223 4-GW with Nippon 105 X-Stiff)
Driver
Mizuno ST-Z 220 9.5* at 7.5* with Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (Replaced Callaway FT-9 Tour 9* with Fubuki Tour 63 Stiff)
#7
Hi thanks for your reply mate. We checked the loft 3 times and every time came out massively wrong - the pro who checked them is 25 years exp in fitting Some were 3.5 degrees upright from the standard lie angle i wanted. The grips were actually all over the place once the place. The whole set stunk of poor attention to detail. The pro has approached the mizuno rep who is now on holiday. I just think of all manufacturers Mizuno should be the best at getting it spot on. So few of us play them you would have thought they might take the care you expect from Mizuno. Just a shambles and absolutely no way of contacting Mizuno UK direct i can find. thanks for your reply though - appreciate the time you took to make it.
I'll kick this thread one last time out of curiosity. The guys above have some good questions and comments. We're all curious, and If there's an issue it's important feedback reach the appropriate people. With that said, the fit and finish being described makes your set a statistical outlier. There are counterfeit Mizuno irons out there. Is it even remotely possible they're fakes?

So we're all on the same page, let's discuss the potential accuracy of any lie/loft measurement. This is a function of the equipment.
  • How far from the head is the measuring point? 6" looks to be typical on the devices I've seen. 12" or 18" would improve accuracy.
    • 1 degree of error is approx. 0.1" of deflection 6 inches from the head.
    • 1/2 degree of error is 0.05" (50 mil) at 6 inches from the head.
  • What gradations are provided on the lie/loft machine?
My point is a small error created by either a procedural mistake or machine issue, which would easily be overlooked without some calibration, can quickly yield a degree or more of error. Because there is no real standard all measurements on the same machine are at best relative.

Between you and I, whether a pro has 25 years of fitting experience or 1 is not important. I have zero experience measuring lie and loft, and yet I'm quite confident I could get it right without assistance. That doesn't mean my answer would be the most accurate... but I suspect they would be "good enough". Measuring on the same equipment helps and trusting results over numbers is critical in my opinion. Life lessons have taught me conclusions drawn from qualitative statements supported with select quantitative results tend to be dubious at best. When the conclusions buck personal experience they make us question their validity. The easy solution is to fill in the blanks so we all understand.

In my opinion the best way to ask about a QC issue would be as follows:
  • My new irons seem to be suffering from poor fit and finish. Here is some info I got from my fitter, any feedback would be appreciated.
  • The clubs were purchased through "LettuceB's House of Pretty Good Golf Clubs". They were ordered directly from Mizuno.
  • The loft / lie of the clubs is as follows (list each club along with the loft and lie). They were measured on "LettuceB's Pro Angle-inator".
    • Take representative pics of the setup of a couple clubs if possible.
  • Grip alignment looks to be poor. Here's a picture of all clubs lined up next to each other (show all clubs head-to-grip in one photo).
  • Other irregularities noted are... (missing serial numbers, different serial numbers, possible damage, strange finish detail on the heads, etc).
  • Whatever you do, avoid defining something as "some" or "all over the place" as they mean different things to different people.
At the end of the day, though, it's hard to chastise a manufacturer for the random QC issue. All it takes is one employee having a bad day. The goal should be to get the build fixed to your satisfaction.

My two cents.
 
Likes: DennisMiller

DennisMiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Miami, Florida
HCP
Old Age
Local club/country
Killian Greens Golf Club
#8
Something tells me onetoanother either got rid of the clubs or was embarrassed to tell us he discovered something wrong, like maybe they hadn't bought from a real dealer. He has 3 posts total, 2 of which are in this thread. I don't know how to find the other one, to know if it's related to this or not.

I wish he had responded to this thread with the results to know what happened in the end.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#9
sorry i wasnt checking the thread and the emails went into my spam.
Clubs were bought through a PGA pro who ordered them direct from Mizuno via the rep for his region.
The grips were factory fitted by mizuno (out of line of a number of them) as i had X100 tour dynamics fitted which are the only upgrade shaft that costs extra.

i have to say some of the comments above are utterly bewildering and very childish (The clubs were purchased through "LettuceB's House of Pretty Good Golf Clubs". ). The issues i mentioned were / are very real and not what i would expect from mizuno. Again, the clubs were ordered via a PGA pro at a reputable golf club direct through the mizuno rep to the stats and spec i needed. I am a +1 golfer and have also worked in the golf industry.

So hopefully the above helps a little and again i apologise for not responding sooner. Keep the petulant childish comments out of this please. I have spoken to other golfers i know who also play mizuno and they to have had issues with new build coming from mizuno that have issues such as grips not aligned and loft/lies being out.

Cheers
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#10
Hi there.

This is always a contentious one. Sometimes when i follow up on these - i conclude that independent builders/fitters tend to like to bash major manufacturers (not saying that's the case here). When we do get the clubs back and check, they're pretty much spot on. Generally comes down to different measuring equipment and the definition of 'standard'. Our 2 degrees up is just relative to Mizuno standard, which is different to another manufacturer's or independent club builders standard. Throw in a totally different machine and its rare anything matches up. Which sounds like a mess - but if you are fitted the Mizuno way, with a Mizuno fitter, you'll get the right lie angle (regardless of what we all call it).

The grips are fitted using a laser for alignment. So have no explanation for that. Did they definitely get built by us in Scotland?
yes they were defo built by you in scotland. I ordered them through a PGA pro from a big club who went through his local rep.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#11
yes they were defo built by you in scotland. I ordered them through a PGA pro from a big club who went through his local rep.
if you want me to tell you who he is i can send you a private message.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#12
Something tells me onetoanother either got rid of the clubs or was embarrassed to tell us he discovered something wrong, like maybe they hadn't bought from a real dealer. He has 3 posts total, 2 of which are in this thread. I don't know how to find the other one, to know if it's related to this or not.

I wish he had responded to this thread with the results to know what happened in the end.
why would i be embarrassed? Im busy hence not living on forums every day. As for how many times ive posted does that make me less of a Mizuno customer than perhaps you think you are? Ive played mizuno all my golfing life. Im 51 now and play off +1. Is it any wonder boards like these are basically left to a few who think they can be rude and belittle others? For the record and once more - i purchased a set of Mizuno Pros from a club pro ive bought from many times. He is a Mizuno pro and i sent him my specs. He did not fit me as i fit myself. The clubs were then sent through his regional rep and prepared in Scotland at the Mizuno factory. The end result, and this is the first ever time its happened to me, were the lie angles were all over the place. Some too flat some too upright. 4 of the grips were obviously put on incorrectly and misaligned.
So please stop the "something tells me" nonsense. Its patrnising and pointless in what should have been an adult conversation.
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 7.0
Local club/country
Army GC Hampshire
Irons
Mizuno MP-20 MMC (4-AW) Modus3 105s
Driver
TM Stealth II MRC Tensei Orange 50s
#13
I'd rather not get involved in squabbles over who said what to who & why, but would like to add something about lie angles ...
I took a set TM P770 irons to a pal of mine (PGA fitter) who runs one of the biggest / busiest club repair workshops in SE - I asked him
to adjust the lies 1.5* upright for me, which is how I usually prefer them - His immediate response was "What lie angle do you want?"
To him, as an expert, 1.5* upright is meaningless as (in his words) there is no industry standard for lie angle? - So I looked up the lie angle
that TM list for their P770 irons & he adjusted them to that exact figure for each club plus 1.5* (and in use, they are exactly as I like them)
You can see what he means when you look at the comparison below of the lie angles for the Pro 221's v P770's:

221 P770
60.5 63 5 iron (64.5* after adjustment)
61 63.5 6 iron
61.5 64 7 iron
62 64.5 8 iron
62.5 65 9 iron
63 65.5 PW
 

DennisMiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Miami, Florida
HCP
Old Age
Local club/country
Killian Greens Golf Club
#14
why would i be embarrassed? Im busy hence not living on forums every day. As for how many times ive posted does that make me less of a Mizuno customer than perhaps you think you are? Ive played mizuno all my golfing life. Im 51 now and play off +1. Is it any wonder boards like these are basically left to a few who think they can be rude and belittle others? For the record and once more - i purchased a set of Mizuno Pros from a club pro ive bought from many times. He is a Mizuno pro and i sent him my specs. He did not fit me as i fit myself. The clubs were then sent through his regional rep and prepared in Scotland at the Mizuno factory. The end result, and this is the first ever time its happened to me, were the lie angles were all over the place. Some too flat some too upright. 4 of the grips were obviously put on incorrectly and misaligned.
So please stop the "something tells me" nonsense. Its patrnising and pointless in what should have been an adult conversation.
I'm sorry you have taken such offense to my questions, wondering what happened after a few of us tried to help and you never replied. Please believe me, none was intended, but when problems arise and we don't hear back from a member, we can only surmise the problem was remedied in some way, shape or form.

That said, you still haven't mentioned how you got things sorted out, whether someone was able to reset your lofts and lies to your satisfaction, or whether you had to send the clubs back, or what. While I hope something this dramatic never happens to anyone else, if it does, it helps the few of us left in the forum offer assistance and appropriate suggestions to the person suffering through the kid of issues you've been through.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#15
I'd rather not get involved in squabbles over who said what to who & why, but would like to add something about lie angles ...
I took a set TM P770 irons to a pal of mine (PGA fitter) who runs one of the biggest / busiest club repair workshops in SE - I asked him
to adjust the lies 1.5* upright for me, which is how I usually prefer them - His immediate response was "What lie angle do you want?"
To him, as an expert, 1.5* upright is meaningless as (in his words) there is no industry standard for lie angle? - So I looked up the lie angle
that TM list for their P770 irons & he adjusted them to that exact figure for each club plus 1.5* (and in use, they are exactly as I like them)
You can see what he means when you look at the comparison below of the lie angles for the Pro 221's v P770's:

221 P770
60.5 63 5 iron (64.5* after adjustment)
61 63.5 6 iron
61.5 64 7 iron
62 64.5 8 iron
62.5 65 9 iron
63 65.5 PW
thanks for the reply and well considered point. I actually had the lie angles checked against Mizunos published lofts and lies on the website corresponding to my new set of Mizuno pros. This was when we (the mizuno endorsed club fitter) i went to realise just how badly they were out. Brand new some still in the plastic wrapping. So to answer your question above the adjustments i had him make were then based off the published numbers Mizuno gave. I have actually fitted clubs on loft lie machines as well so between us we had the skills and knowledge to fix them. So...should i have sent them back? Probably yes. But in all honesty apart from a few wonky grips and lie angles we fixed ourselves im very happy to still play the clubs. In the future though when i get my next set i will have them all double checked by the Mizuno endorsed club pro before i take them away. The reality is a few bad clubs left the scotland factory and were not properly QA'd. As i said originally its something i would have expected from T/Made or another company thats churns out clubs. Not what i expect from a manufacturer of Mizunos standing for quality.
 
Likes: PaulBoy
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
HCP
0
Local club/country
United Kingdom
Irons
Mizuno Pro 221, x100 tour
Driver
Sim2 - xflex
#16
I'm sorry you have taken such offense to my questions, wondering what happened after a few of us tried to help and you never replied. Please believe me, none was intended, but when problems arise and we don't hear back from a member, we can only surmise the problem was remedies in some way, shape or form.

That said, you still haven't mentioned how you got things sorted out, whether someone was able to reset your lofts and lies to your satisfaction, or whether you had to send the clubs back, or what. While I hope something this dramatic never happens to anyone else, if it does, it helps the few of us left in the forum offer assistance and appropriate suggestions to the person suffering through the kid of issues you've been through.
Please see my reply to PaulBoy. I am happy to play the clubs after i spent time fixing what were poorly QAd clubs leaving the Scottish factory. As for taking offence maybe you should read your original post that i did take exception of. At best it was patronising.
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 7.0
Local club/country
Army GC Hampshire
Irons
Mizuno MP-20 MMC (4-AW) Modus3 105s
Driver
TM Stealth II MRC Tensei Orange 50s
#17
thanks for the reply and well considered point. I actually had the lie angles checked against Mizunos published lofts and lies on the website corresponding to my new set of Mizuno pros. This was when we (the mizuno endorsed club fitter) i went to realise just how badly they were out. Brand new some still in the plastic wrapping. So to answer your question above the adjustments i had him make were then based off the published numbers Mizuno gave. I have actually fitted clubs on loft lie machines as well so between us we had the skills and knowledge to fix them. So...should i have sent them back? Probably yes. But in all honesty apart from a few wonky grips and lie angles we fixed ourselves im very happy to still play the clubs. In the future though when i get my next set i will have them all double checked by the Mizuno endorsed club pro before i take them away. The reality is a few bad clubs left the scotland factory and were not properly QA'd. As i said originally its something i would have expected from T/Made or another company thats churns out clubs. Not what i expect from a manufacturer of Mizunos standing for quality.
I'm glad you were able to get the clubs adjusted correctly, but agree that they should never have been sent out like they were - Mizuno are normally very professional in that respect, but clearly yours were sent out without the proper checks being done - I also have no doubt that if you have chosen to send the clubs back to Mizuno they would have been sorted to your exact specifications - I trust you are enjoying your new clubs & hope you are playing well with them?
 
Top Bottom