World handicap system

MrK20

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Local club/country
Germany
Irons
Mizuno / MP 20 HMB; MP 20; T20 / 2; 3-9; 49, 54, 60, Nippon Modus 120 S
Driver
Mizuno / ST-Z / D, 3W, 5W / JPX900 22H / CLK 25H. MRC Diamana D+(D, 3W, 5W) , Fujikura SIX R(22), Fujikura Speeder Hb 85 (25)
@LOS Could you elaborate what you mean by license? I am unsure what you mean. License for what? As far as I am aware the only License in Germany is the "Platzerlaubnis" which is a course you take before being allowed on the course. It used to be that at the end you had HC 54, now this has to be "proven" in a registered round (aka tournament) if I am not mistaken.
 

LOS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
@LOS Could you elaborate what you mean by license? I am unsure what you mean. License for what? As far as I am aware the only License in Germany is the "Platzerlaubnis" which is a course you take before being allowed on the course. It used to be that at the end you had HC 54, now this has to be "proven" in a registered round (aka tournament) if I am not mistaken.
Looking through various links I have
https://internationalpga.com/blog/f/you-need-a-license-to-play-golf-in-germany
The “ Platzreife” requirement is rigorous and consists of two parts—a written test and a hands-on test. The hands-on test takes you out on a golf course where you must prove your driving, putting, and chipping skills, and then you join a pro to play 18 holes of golf with a maximum of 108 strokes.

I took the 108 to be roughly 36 handicap and I wondered if the WHS system was going to create a change to 54
 

MrK20

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Local club/country
Germany
Irons
Mizuno / MP 20 HMB; MP 20; T20 / 2; 3-9; 49, 54, 60, Nippon Modus 120 S
Driver
Mizuno / ST-Z / D, 3W, 5W / JPX900 22H / CLK 25H. MRC Diamana D+(D, 3W, 5W) , Fujikura SIX R(22), Fujikura Speeder Hb 85 (25)
I am not sure. When I did the test 10 years ago the rules were more lenient. It was said that you had to play a score of +3 per hole over a number of holes but if the Pro thought you were fine to play than it didn't matter all that much either. I have never heard of anyone losing their Platzerlaubnis, neither with the old system nor with the new, but maybe I am too detached from Club Life to learn of such things.
 

MTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
HCP
f0re
Local club/country
EU
Irons
MP-9-11-14-29-37-20
AFAIK its still exists but it depends on the course if they require it. I guess most do but some don't. And as soon as you have a handicap/membership somewhere else that takes precedent. Other (most) EU countries (at least AUT, CH, ESP, NL, BE, DK, SWE etc) have a similar structure through which you have to show you have the necessary skill to get a ball round a course before you can set foot on one. Usually done by a teaching pro and backed up by a course where you can play under guidance until you can score the equivalent of 54 index. Some are more strict, some more lenient, especially when you are a member on a course. Then you can play there as soon as the pro gives you the go ahead. It is far more lenient than the article suggests and not set in stone.
 
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MrK20

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Local club/country
Germany
Irons
Mizuno / MP 20 HMB; MP 20; T20 / 2; 3-9; 49, 54, 60, Nippon Modus 120 S
Driver
Mizuno / ST-Z / D, 3W, 5W / JPX900 22H / CLK 25H. MRC Diamana D+(D, 3W, 5W) , Fujikura SIX R(22), Fujikura Speeder Hb 85 (25)
From what I have seen on different courses websites is that there are often 2 different options. One is the "DGV Platzreife" which is the official allowance to play on german courses which is accepted anywhere and then a second, cheaper, more lenient option where you "only" recieve an allowance to play on your homecourse, which is a good option for people who do not mean to travel around much.
 

DennisMiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Miami, Florida
HCP
Old Age
Local club/country
Killian Greens Golf Club
Irons
MX-1000
Driver
ST-180
I haven't played in any kind of tournament in probably 30 years, so all this is mystifying to me.

I remember when my father was on the handicap committee at our country club in Kentucky. (early 60s) You had to be signed in at the pro shop and then were required to turn in a score. The committee met once a month, took all your scores for the past month, calculated the average over par and subtracted one stroke to determine your handicap.

At the time, I thought that was complicated.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
HCP
5.8
Local club/country
Oxford Golf Club
Irons
MP-650 3-4 hybrid (Fujikura Orochi 85g R), MP-32 4-PW (Dynamic Gold R300), MP-R12 52-58 wedges
Driver
ST-Z 10.5 (Project X Hzrdus RDX Smoke 6.0 60g), ST-Z 3-Wood (Project X Evenflow Riptide 5.5R 60g)
The issue with the WHS for me is that big scores don't see a decent reduction as it's only 1 of the last 20.

I've known people score 44 points and take the money at a rollup and their handicap went up because the 44 replaced a 45.

Prior to WHS you maybe got 2-5 players scoring 40+ points over a weekend, now it seems to be 10+ regularly (usually those in the 14-20 handicap range as well).

I have to play out of my skin to score 37-39 and know that this won't be enough.

Some sort of happy middle ground needs to be found with big scores seeing an exceptional cut.
 

PaulBoy

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Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 7.0
Local club/country
Army GC
Irons
Mizuno Pro 223 (4-AW) Modus3 120s
Driver
Titleist TSi2 Graphite Design Tour AD XC-50s
You are correct BigH1 that it seems crazy that a player can score 6 or 8 shots better than handicap & have their handicap increase, but that is one of the many anomalies of WHS? - As you say, if the score that drops off is better than the one that is added then your best eight score average will go up & not reflect the score you have just done? - I'm more worried (as mentioned previously above) that it is too easy to manipulate a WHS handicap - In brief I know of someone who submitted a series of bad scores as General Play rounds & their handicap increased from 12 to 18 - Not surprisingly, they then started scoring 40+ points all the time, but did not submit those scores as GP rounds - One round in particular was 47pts with two holes as NR! - Only rounds in club comps (where card submission is mandatory) were counting towards WHS handicap - I reported the individual & was told there was nothing that could be done as WHS was "based on the integrity of the golfer"? - Tell that to the other golfers who have lost out to this individual - As a result, I do not play in club comps, but like the majority of those who I play in regular roll ups etc I still submit a GP card for every round ...
 

LOS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
Not being a twitter user anymore I missed this.

England Golf on Twitter.jpg

It will please quite a number of people.
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 7.0
Local club/country
Army GC
Irons
Mizuno Pro 223 (4-AW) Modus3 120s
Driver
Titleist TSi2 Graphite Design Tour AD XC-50s
To save others looking it up ...

"From 13th June, golfers using the MyEG App will be able to add general play scores from any affiliated golf course in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales."
Presumably golfers using the App for their country will be able to do likewise?
 

HAIRY ESSEX BLOKE

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Location
Fabulous Frinton on Sea ESSEX
HCP
12.2
Local club/country
Fabulous Frinton on Sea ESSEX
Irons
MP53 4-PW MPT 10 51 & 54 deg various fairways & hybrids plus MX23, MP18MMC, MMC hi fli CLK hybrids T7 wedges
Driver
Mizuno MX700 JPX EZ ,GT & ST180 & ST180G
I haven't played in any kind of tournament in probably 30 years, so all this is mystifying to me.

I remember when my father was on the handicap committee at our country club in Kentucky. (early 60s) You had to be signed in at the pro shop and then were required to turn in a score. The committee met once a month, took all your scores for the past month, calculated the average over par and subtracted one stroke to determine your handicap.

At the time, I thought that was complicated.
Now we have a computer haha
 

DennisMiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Miami, Florida
HCP
Old Age
Local club/country
Killian Greens Golf Club
Irons
MX-1000
Driver
ST-180
Now we have a computer haha
Sometimes I'm not so sure computers are so much help. Years ago, when i was running a synagogue, we were completely computerized. When people came in the office to pay dues, make donations or buy tickets to some event, we had to stop what we were doing, save our work, go into whatever other program we needed, do whatever the congregant wanted and then go back to our work.

Power got knocked out from a tropical storm and for 3 days, we had to hand write receipts, then batch enter them all at once when power came back. I worked with one person to do the batch entry and it was a joy not to let anyone interrupt us.

These days, I always seem to ask myself if i really need a computer to accomplish something. It's hard to avoid, but i try.
 

Bonobobananas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
HCP
7.1
Local club/country
England
Irons
Titleist T100s 😬
Driver
TM Stealth 2+
You are correct BigH1 that it seems crazy that a player can score 6 or 8 shots better than handicap & have their handicap increase, but that is one of the many anomalies of WHS? - As you say, if the score that drops off is better than the one that is added then your best eight score average will go up & not reflect the score you have just done? - I'm more worried (as mentioned previously above) that it is too easy to manipulate a WHS handicap - In brief I know of someone who submitted a series of bad scores as General Play rounds & their handicap increased from 12 to 18 - Not surprisingly, they then started scoring 40+ points all the time, but did not submit those scores as GP rounds - One round in particular was 47pts with two holes as NR! - Only rounds in club comps (where card submission is mandatory) were counting towards WHS handicap - I reported the individual & was told there was nothing that could be done as WHS was "based on the integrity of the golfer"? - Tell that to the other golfers who have lost out to this individual - As a result, I do not play in club comps, but like the majority of those who I play in regular roll ups etc I still submit a GP card for every round ...
Just read this so a bit slow to the party. I’m not sure how someone could go up 6 shots by submitting a bunch of duff scores, as there is a soft cap of 3 higher then a hard cap of 5 meaning you can’t go up more than 5 shots (index) in a calendar year? If it’s clear that someone is submitting a bunch of bad scores but not entering the good ones then the handicap committee should be all over it.
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 7.0
Local club/country
Army GC
Irons
Mizuno Pro 223 (4-AW) Modus3 120s
Driver
Titleist TSi2 Graphite Design Tour AD XC-50s
Just read this so a bit slow to the party. I’m not sure how someone could go up 6 shots by submitting a bunch of duff scores, as there is a soft cap of 3 higher then a hard cap of 5 meaning you can’t go up more than 5 shots (index) in a calendar year? If it’s clear that someone is submitting a bunch of bad scores but not entering the good ones then the handicap committee should be all over it.
OK it was probably "only" five shots this individual raised their handicap by? - After he won a major club competition I sent details of what he had been doing to the club handicap committee chair, who refused to do anything citing "WHS is based on the integrity of golfers" & I gave up ...
 

CH919Forged

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Joined
Sep 11, 2020
HCP
12.2
Local club/country
Shandon Park NI
Irons
JPX 919 Forged 4-GW
Driver
Callaway XR 10.5 Project X Stiff
OK it was probably "only" five shots this individual raised their handicap by? - After he won a major club competition I sent details of what he had been doing to the club handicap committee chair, who refused to do anything citing "WHS is based on the integrity of golfers" & I gave up ...
Your M&H committee need to grow a set or more golfers need to refuse club comps until they do. The system is far too easily manipulated. Should have to enter a score every time you go out for 18 holes, good bad or otherwise. Great that gp rounds can now be entered across the isles but id rather see the speed of play improve on a Saturday afternoon.
 

LOS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
As the weather has been lousy I was looking at the "English Amateur Championship" and amongst other things I looked through their entrance eligibillity.and saw this:-

1690901097337.png

It must be a disincentive for players around "scratch" to put in "General play" scores if they wish to play major competitions.
 

Hendo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
HCP
12
Local club/country
Royal Dornoch
Irons
4-PW Mizuno JPX 850 Forged
Driver
Mizuno JPX EZ 2016 - Fujikara Orochi Stiff
Living 'dahn sarf' in England and being a member of a Scottish club (my only membership), I've also had many issues with folks looking at the 'validity of my handicap'. Under the old system, I would have to submit a minimum of three cards at the Scottish club to maintain my handicap. I used to do this by getting as many in as possible during my annual 'two weeker' in the highlands. Was this a fair reflection of my handicap for the rest of the year? No, but it's all I could do. it didn't make me popular with my good lady either but needs must. Come the advent of WHS, I saw the best of eight, of your last 20 as a reasonable method, and once I'd got my head around course ratings, slope ratings, PCC etc, I can pretty much know, how my index will be affected by any card I submit, even for nine hole games. I think it makes a decent fist of reflecting you on your better day, but like the old system, it can be abused. With what Paulboy described, it would have to be a handicap committee monitoring things to stamp out obvious abuse/cheating. I was very excited when Golf Scotland released their app so that I could submit GP scores from anywhere in the world (40k courses Ala Bushnell) Not being anywhere near scratch, I saw this as excellent as I could now submit every time I played, ensuring that my index would now be a true reflection of how I currently play. Then Golf Scotland committed the ultimate IT sin, by upgrading the software provider for the app. This meant getting something that looked marginally better, but had none of the functionality of the old app. Overnight I went to only being able to submit GP cards, so long as I was playing a Scottish course, and as long as it was verified by someone with a Scottish CDH member number. Any time I was contacted by someone from Golf Scotland I was mysteriously struck with Tourettes. In April, I was in Scotland but still couldn't submit GP scores as my playing partners are all Golf England members 🤷‍♂️. So yes, it's nice to now be able to recognise courses in the rest of the UK but still beggars the question, when will the UK golf organisations recognise that the 'W' in WHS stands for World?
 
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