World handicap system

LOS

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Dec 3, 2015
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England
#81
It will be a long time or maybe never that you will have a simple cross border system because of privacy rules that have been put in place. GPDR rules.
 

PaulBoy

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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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#82
EG have now replied to my query about my LHI - As well as pointing out the correct support procedure (Club Hcap Committee as first POC) they advised "... they will confirm that a low index can only be calculated with 20 scores in the players record" - As mentioned above, the LHI software seems to work fine for someone who's LHI is coming down, but, in my case anyway, does not seem to adjust if your LHI was set too early?
Paul
For anyone who might be interested (?) I got an update from EG today in reply to my query about my Low Handicap Index (LHI) - Although initially told that in my case my LHI should have been classed as "pending" until such time as I had submitted the full 20 recordable scores (I had 15 recorded when WHS started) it turns out that this would not have made any difference to my LHI UNLESS one of the scores from rounds 16 - 20 had been LOWER than my allocated LHI (2.6) - The LHI is not any sort of calculation across the 20 recordable scores, but merely the LOWEST INDEX for a SINGLE ROUND over a calendar year (which in my case was 2.6) - Now that is sorted, when would my LHI change next if I don't achieve a lower LHI than 2.6? - Is it on 2nd November '21 or a year from the date of the single round when I set the LHI?
Paul
 

LOS

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Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
#83
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As it was your first LHI it should be 365 days from the date when your LHI was set. I assume they chose 365 days as that is constant and they don't have to do anything for leap years. After the 1st 365 days my interpretation is that it becomes a rolling index everytime you enter a score.

There are variables where Handicap committee's can change a Hndicap index which could also affect your LHI.
 

PaulBoy

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Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
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Army GC & New Forest GC
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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#84
View attachment 10075

As it was your first LHI it should be 365 days from the date when your LHI was set. I assume they chose 365 days as that is constant and they don't have to do anything for leap years. After the 1st 365 days my interpretation is that it becomes a rolling index everytime you enter a score.

There are variables where Handicap committee's can change a Hndicap index which could also affect your LHI.
Thanks for the input LOS - Actually my 2.6 LHI was the figure my WHS Handicap Index was on on 3rd November '20 - Looking back from there to my 1st recorded score, my WHS Index goes down as low as 0.5 so I am still confused? - Those scores go back to 2018, but from what EG told me, how did they come up with 2.6, when there were lower handicap index scores than 2.6 in the 365 days prior to 3rd November '20?
Paul
 

LOS

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Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
#85
IMHO it hinges on the fact that you didn't have the 20 acceptable scores at the transition and have just used your Handicap Index as the LHI.

They have included this in the rules for people who take a break from golf and don't submit a score for over a year, however it shouldn't have been applied to you.
 

WalkerCup

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May 5, 2016
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Scratch
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#87
Looks as though the "Independent Golers" handicap system is launching in July in England.
https://www.englandgolf.org/independent-golfer-update-25-may/
Basically as long as the golf club recognises Independent Golfers they are eligible to play in club competitions on the same grounds as a club member. I can see the advantages of golf for all, but a golfer playing in a monthly medal simply paying a green fee and competition entrance fee winning the main prize over a club member paying an annual membership fee has serious implications.
 

CH919Forged

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Sep 11, 2020
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13.5
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Shandon Park NI
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JPX 919 Forged 4-GW
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Callaway XR 10.5 Project X Stiff
#88
So I thought I'd post a bit of an update on my own experience with this system. Jumped from 15 to nearly 17 and have got back down to 14.4 with most of the counting 8 being very recent rounds and only one round remaining from last season which drops off in a few weeks. I get the point that it is meant to reflect your true ability, I'm just not sure about it. Seems to take longer to go down than go up. I suppose the old system was the other way. 0.1 raise for being awful and only up one shot a year. I'm still not convinced this system is much good and I play the vast majority of golf at my home club so yet to really see how the index carries to different courses in reality.
 

PaulBoy

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Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
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Army GC & New Forest GC
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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#89
I also find it hard to put a positive spin on WHS - Having been given a ridiculous 2.6 HI on transition & refused a handicap review, all I could do was submit cards for all rounds played & within 3 months (of playing) my HI was over 7 with over 60 recorded scores - Recently, I have chipped away at this and am back down to 6, which is more reflective of my playing ability - I continue to submit cards for all rounds, but am aware that a lot of people still don't & this makes unfair manipulation of your WHS a real issue - It means I rarely play in club competitions as it really is just lining the pockets of those who have (or maintain) false HI's - So I stick to playing rollups or social golf with friends, the vast majority of whom, submit cards for all rounds played - I used to play in about 5 or 6 Opens a year (most this year were cancelled due to C19) but I doubt I'll play in any in the future for the same reason?
As with CH919Forged, I have not used my HI much away from my home course, although I do play one other course regularly - There is a single shot difference there due to it's lower Slope Rating - I can see the theory behind this aspect of WHS, but in reality most people play their golf at the same course most of the time, with maybe the odd game away from there?
I suppose at the end of the day once the USA & Europe moved to WHS the UK had to follow, but as we approach 1 year of WHS I wonder if it will it be considered a success?
 

MTR

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f0re
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EU
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MP-9-11-14-29-37
#90
Give it time. Any system change in itself can never be called a success, it depends on how it is used (and accepted). WHS has both improvements and drawbacks compared to CONGU/EGA but in the end it will reflect current playing ability just as well if not better, provided enough scores are submitted. Anything under 8-10 results in a year is insufficient and results in a 'basically meaningless' index. Only once you get to at least 20 you can judge it accordingly. Personally I don't think WHS 'solves' anything an active committee couldn't achieve before, but mathematically/statistically it makes for a more representative reflection of current paying ability as long as sufficient scores are submitted. Without cherry picking of course.
 

Br1an_g

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Dec 18, 2010
Location
Dundee
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10
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Ballumbie Castle
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Mizuno MP54 3-PW DG X100
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Mizuno jpx 850 9.5* Speeder
#91
8.8 after 3 cards
9.9 after 16 cards.
Highest handicap was 11.8 within the 16 rounds.
1 of my original 3 scores is still in my average.
Best score differential is 8.6.
Worst differential is 22.5.

Ive not got any issues with the methodology.
But even when I shot under handicap I was still 5 points/shots behind the guys winning the comp. Every week there's crazy scores which I don't remember before. Seems from general observation the likelihood of extreme positive scoring is higher and more consistent than it was before. Don't think I had ever seen a net 59 before this season!
 

PaulBoy

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Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
Irons
Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
Driver
Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#92
As the year anniversary of WHS approaches, I have been trying to find out what happens to a players Low Handicap Index (LHI)? - At the start of WHS last November a players Low Handicap Index was set based on the acceptable scores recorded on their old CONGU record - In my case (as mentioned above) my LHI was much lower than the CONGU handicap I was on (5.4 v 2.6) - As I understood it, a players LHI would remain at that mark for a calendar year? - My question is, a year later, how is a players LHI then calculated? - I tried to find this on EG & RANDA but failed - Anyone (Walker Cup perhaps?) have an idea on this?
 

MTR

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MP-9-11-14-29-37
#93
LHI is basically the lowest 'full' index in the 365 day period (not calendar year) preceding the most recent score (Rule 5.7). Full being based on at least 20 scores, not before. Once fully established the LHI is then re-evaluated after every new score. If a lower index is reached, that becomes the new LHI. If a players index is only trending upward the LHI will also once the score(s) responsible for the LHI laps 365 days after playing date. Your hcp record should show both the LHI as well as the date of each score and the index before and after that score. If your LHI has stayed at the same mark since November with all your scores being higher, something is off. Easy to spot if you post the records.
 
Likes: PaulBoy

PaulBoy

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Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#94
Thanks for that MTR ... "something is off. Easy to spot if you post the records."? - My LHI is 2.6 as allocated on transition from CONGU & I have not got close to that mark since November - So imho the only thing that is "off" is the LHI I was allocated in the first place? - I think the lowest HI I achieved in that period was 3.9 & I am currently 4.5 (at one point I was 7.2 & nearly needed to invest in a sombrero!) - So my question remains, will my LHI be adjusted after 365 days or is it destined to remain at 2.6 (?)
 

MTR

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#95
IF your initial (transition) index was calculated by taking the last 20 scores from your CONGU record it should be 'correct'. If not, all bets are off. The same goes for the LHI: if done properly it should move up 365 days after the previous LHI was held (not calculated). Some handicapping authorities have programmed their systems to use a rolling LHI from day 1, some only 365 days after transition. No matter the case, as soon as your 2.6 index falls outside of that 365 period and a higher index is the lowest in that period, that should become the new LHI.If you look at your scoring record you'll see the date for each round, the HI you had at the start of the round and the result. Just look at the lowest HI in the 365 days prior to your newest round: that is your LHI. Once that HI ages and drops of the list your LHI will change to the new lowest HI held in 365 days. See
for a hcp record example.
 

PaulBoy

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Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
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Army GC & New Forest GC
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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#96
Thanks for the reply - I can't expect you to wade through my multiple posts on this matter, so will try to sum up in brief ... When WHS started in Nov '20 I was allocated LHI of 2.6 - This was based on 15 scores, mainly at my previous club (where I played for over 20yrs & could play to my CONGU handicap) - I queried the low LHI with EG who told me to contact my Handicap Secretary & ask for a review of my LHI - We don't have a Handicap Secretary (or committee) so the Club Secretary deals with all WHS issues - I asked him for a review - He refused, based on a single score of 73 on my profile, despite the fact that my average score was 79 - I contacted EG who said they could not help further - I gave up & have been submitting cards for all rounds played as General Play Scores & continue to do so...

The reason I am harping on about this is the fact that the LHI is important in terms of how high your HI can increase - Your HI can only be 5 shots higher than your LHI so in my current case the highest HI I could have is 7.6 - As I mentioned, I went up to 7.2 at one point, but if I had a further period of bad play the highest it could increase to would only be 7.6 - The whole idea if WHS is that your HI reflects your current playing ability - If I was only capable of playing to a HI of 9, for example, isn't unfair that the highest HI I can have is 7.6? - Were my LHI to increase from 2.6 to say 4.0 I would then be able to have a HI of 9.0...

My own feelings on this are that WHS does not expect players to start with a LHI & not be able to better it in a 365 day period? - Had my LHI been reviewed & reset to a higher value at the start, my LHI would currently be 3.9 which is lowest mark I have achieved through the submission of cards - As it stands, I seem destined to be stuck with a LHI of 2.6 unless someone tells me different?
 

MTR

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#97
Looks like the Club Secretary is the problem for not following WHS regulations on multiple instances. EG should really step up in that case, but they don't want to tread on the clubs' toes. Since the hcp admin is automated, your LHI should at least 'renew' from Nov onward but you never should have had a LHI of 2.6 in the first place. It takes the full 20 scores before a LHI can be established exactly for the reason you mentioned: it can have a significant limiting impact on the rage of movement of an index when fixed too low. If your initial 2.6 was the result of 15 scores it was an average of only the best 5 scores. Safe to say that once you got up to the required 20, the average of the best 8 would be higher than 2.6 and as a result so would be the initial LHI. Check your handicap record for the first date your index was higher than 2.6 and you should see the LHI change 365+ days later. Not withstandig the errors made, the handicap committee has the authority (and obligation) to make sure a players index reflects current playing ability by manual adjustment. Any system is only as good as the people using it, and in this case they aren't. You're doing the only (and best) thing you can do: keep submitting scores and don't let them/it get you down.
 

PaulBoy

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Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
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Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
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Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
#98
Everything you say is correct & when I reached my 20 scores I asked again for the LHI to be adjusted accordingly, but this did not happen & I was told "just keep submitting cards & your HI will increase" - Of course that has been the case, but does not get away from the fact that it should have been adjusted in the first instance and /or when 20 scores were present? - It will be interesting to see what (if anything) happens in November when I pass 365 days? - Today I have emailed EG WHS Help Line with my question about LHI after 365 days? - I will report back with developments on either ...

Edit: WHS Help Line replied ... "contact your Handicap Committee" ...
 
Last edited:

Halebopp

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Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
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#99
What has been your Lowest Handicap Index after Nov 20 of last year? If it was, say 3.0 on Nov 29, the LHI will become that once you play after Nov 20 (but before the 29th, otherwise the one on 29th would naturally also drop off).
 

PaulBoy

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Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 4.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
Irons
Mizuno MP-68 (4-PW) or MX20
Driver
Driver Titleist TSi2 9.25* Kuro Kage Black 50s
What has been your Lowest Handicap Index after Nov 20 of last year? If it was, say 3.0 on Nov 29, the LHI will become that once you play after Nov 20 (but before the 29th, otherwise the one on 29th would naturally also drop off).
Hello ... What is the relevance of the date (29th Nov)? - Anyway due to Covid 19 there was a month long lockdown in November 2020 here in the UK so I only played once that month! - I played 10x rounds from end of the lockdown until end of December '20 and at end of that period my HI was 4.8
Does that help?
 
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