World handicap system

Rappers

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#61
Bit late joining the party, I understand the concept of the new WHS but I do have some reservations. For example, it appears that lower handicap golfers have had their handicap reduced and higher handicappers increased. This may well even itself out with the slope rating, but in some ways the SL negates the handicap system in the first place.

Having done a dry run I put in my handicap on a very tough course and I gained one shot, up to 6 from 5, whereas a 20 handicapper would gain several shots. Ok on an easier course the gains and losses are not so extreme.
 

PaulBoy

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#62
As you have mentioned above, your country has been using WHS for several months before here in the UK - You should have a better idea of whether the new Handicap Index is indeed a "measure of a player's ability"? - Looking from the outside, a CONGU handicap was such a measure, provided the holder played regularly in competitions (or other qualifying rounds)
WHS does not appear to me to do the same, as your handicap index is based on your most recent 20 rounds - As a retired person I can play 20 rounds in just over a month, so my current handicap index of 3.0 (itself based on scores back to Feb 2018 on a course I was very familiar with) is likely to change drastically after a months worth of play? - This is based on how I have been scoring at my current course, which I am still getting the hang of after just over a year - Maybe after nearly 60 years of playing this game (I started when I was four) I will have a handicap index that, for the first time ever, evokes the "bandit" moniker?
Paul
I thought I'd do a quick update on WHS and how it is working for me? - As a quick recap, I was allocated a WHS Handicap Index (HI) of 2.6 and was less than impressed given my old CONGU handicap was 4.5 (& had never been lower than 4.3) - Mainly this was because the low rounds on my profile were at my old course where I had played for over 20 years, with only a few rounds at my new course of about 18 months - I also tried to get my club to do a Handicap Review but this was declined as I did not have the required 20 scores on my profile - From start of WHS in November I began to submit cards for all rounds played - I am now well past the 20 rounds from which my HI is calculated - Bearing in mind that I was unable to play any golf in November (Covid Lockdown) I have already taken my HI from 2.6 to it's current mark of 5.2 - With a number of counting scores from my old club still waiting to drop off my profile, I anticipate my HI will continue to climb? - I was told there was a cap on how many shots a HI could increase in a calendar year (5?) so it remains to be seen if that is what happens? - The reason for my skepticism on this is that I was also told that there was a 3 shot cap on how many shots a HI could come down (3) but a pal of mine has already come down 6 shots!
Paul
 

PaulBoy

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#64
Hi LOS ... Thanks for the information - So, as far as I can see, the highest HI I can reach is 2.6 + 5 i.e. 7.6 (?) - Was the information I was told that this calculation was for a calendar year (?) - That would be from WHS going live on 2nd November '20 presumably (?)
Cheers ... Paul
 

LOS

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#65
I assume the 2.6 was designated as your "Low Handicap Index" after having 20 qualifyng scores submitted? If it was then the highest you can reach would be 7.6 for 365 days from the date when your low handicap was designated. Not every player will have had sufficient scores submitted by 2nd November so their 365 days will start from when their low handicap index is designated.
 

PaulBoy

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#66
Hello ... No, the 2.6 was my first WHS Handicap Index when I only had 16 qualifying scores - I could check what my HI was when I reached 20 qualifying scores, but my understanding was that 2.6 would be my "Low Handicap Index" regardless of how many qualifying scores were used to obtain it? - That was the reason I asked my Club for a Handicap Review when I was given 2.6 and also why I asked again when I reached 20 qualifying scores & my HI was higher? - Both requests were denied (I queried this with England Golf who stated a member could request a Handicap Review at any time?) - I gave up discussing this with my Club ...
Paul
PS - According to the IG App which links directly with EG my Low Handicap Index is 2.6
 

LOS

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#67
With 16 rounds you will have been given handicap Index based on the average of your lowest 5 rounds. However you should have at least 20 acceptable scores to be given a "Low Handicap Index"

1609427870597.png
 

PaulBoy

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#68
I appreciate what you are saying, but in my case my Low Handicap Index has never changed from the initial 2.6 on 2nd November '20 to date
I have just sent an email to EG asking for clarification, but I have sent several previous emails to EG on WHS and their stock reply seems to be
to refer me to pdf's of their Toolkit & FAQs
Paul
 

MTR

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#69
Authorities are struggling with the implementation on all fronts ;). The rules are as stated: LHI is determined with 20 scores present, but most EU/UK software systems will not be able to cope if the initial (transition) index is based on less than 20 scores and the 'real' LHI after 20 scores is higher. The basically neglected to implement that rule.

EDIT: going from 16 to 20 scores with none of the new results in the best 8 will not lower your index and LHI will be the same as initial.
 

PaulBoy

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#70
Authorities are struggling with the implementation on all fronts ;). The rules are as stated: LHI is determined with 20 scores present, but most EU/UK software systems will not be able to cope if the initial (transition) index is based on less than 20 scores and the 'real' LHI after 20 scores is higher. The basically neglected to implement that rule.

EDIT: going from 16 to 20 scores with none of the new results in the best 8 will not lower your index and LHI will be the same as initial.

Surely the LHI should be reassessed once 20 qualifying scores are recorded? - In my case, that would reset the LHI to a higher figure, which I believe is a better assessment of my playing ability? - My LHI has been left at 2.6 & has never changed which I believe is unfair? - It will be interesting to see what EG say ...
Paul
 

PaulBoy

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#71
Surely the LHI should be reassessed once 20 qualifying scores are recorded? - In my case, that would reset the LHI to a higher figure, which I believe is a better assessment of my playing ability? - My LHI has been left at 2.6 & has never changed which I believe is unfair? - It will be interesting to see what EG say ...
Paul
EG have now replied to my query about my LHI - As well as pointing out the correct support procedure (Club Hcap Committee as first POC) they advised "... they will confirm that a low index can only be calculated with 20 scores in the players record" - As mentioned above, the LHI software seems to work fine for someone who's LHI is coming down, but, in my case anyway, does not seem to adjust if your LHI was set too early?
Paul
 

LOS

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#72
England Golf: Official handicaps will be offered to independent golfers
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-offer-independent-golfers-official-handicap/

I am still against this, not from protecting club membership, as I don't see how they are going to manage this. Are we going to have a situation where people can put in their own scores as I can see a lot of clubs not being prepared to enter visitors rounds for non-competition rounds and this could lead to abuse of the handicap system.
 

PaulBoy

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#73
England Golf: Official handicaps will be offered to independent golfers
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-offer-independent-golfers-official-handicap/

I am still against this, not from protecting club membership, as I don't see how they are going to manage this. Are we going to have a situation where people can put in their own scores as I can see a lot of clubs not being prepared to enter visitors rounds for non-competition rounds and this could lead to abuse of the handicap system.
As if WHS itself wasn't a big enough mess? - Now EG plan to issue handicaps to "Independent Golfers"? - I can understand that EG want to tap into a further million plus golfers who do not have club membership, but how on earth could this be administered? - There are plenty of golf societies that are well run with some sort of handicap structure, but I would suggest these are in the minority? - If the club opens I play in every year started to allow these independent golfers to play I certainly wouldn't be taking part - At least when you knew (pre WHS) that all players had official CONGU handicaps, you felt that there was a level playing field - I can't see that being the case if this latest EG plan goes ahead ...
Paul
 

LOS

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#74
https://www.gcma.org.uk/news/england-golf-gcma-webinar/
"Asked about the origins of the scheme, Tomlinson told managers he’d received a call last year from R&A chief executive Martin Slumbers, and chief development officer Phil Anderton, who told him their new strategy included not only connecting with as many golfers as possible but the desire to provide them with handicaps.
He added that Wales, Ireland and Scotland had already agreed to create platforms.
If we didn’t retain our position as the single authority for handicapping then, invariably, a commercial partner of the R&A may well have come into England and taken up that mantle,” he said."

Was he given a hint or is it an excuse?

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-independent-golfers-scores-monitored/
“So England Golf will form its own handicap committee, likely made up of regional and, or, county handicap advisors.
“Part of the beauty of the new WHS system, not just in our country but around the world, is there are flags, checks and balances within the system that automatically flag potential concerns, not just for independent golfers but members as well."
“The system will flag that. We will have our own handicap committee.”
"
Independent golfers would input their scores through the My England Golf app and a geo-location tool within that would mean an individual would have to be within a kilometre of a clubhouse to download a scorecard.
“All independent golfers, as members do now for general play scores, would have to pre-register,” said Flint. “Clearly, they would be registered on our system.
“There would also be a timing device within the app that independent golfers couldn’t just input scores within five or 10 minutes of downloading that scorecard
“It would at least be an hour, maybe a little bit longer if it’s for nine holes. So geo-location and timing within the app is absolutely critical.
For marking and verifying scorecards, Flint added an individual playing with an independent golfer would also have to be registered on the system – “so another registered independent golfer, or a member of a golf club, to mark and verify that card."
“Everything would be automated through the system, so there would be no administration requirements on the golf club itself.”

It's all very well "Flagging concerns" but can they actually resolve anything?

I wonder if they will try and re-instate the CONGU Team to run it?
 
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Halebopp

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#75
Do you have many independent golfers in the UK? Practically everyone here in Finland belongs to a club and those who don't are stuck playing a handful of par-3 courses and even then they usually need to be accompanied by someone who's a member at some club and has passed the golf license test.

We used to have the online verification of returned extra-day scores but they did away with it when the WHS kicked in, most probably because of the PCC and the need to have the scores in the system before they do the PCC run at night. That's a big reason why I dislike PCC.
 

LOS

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#76
Do you have many independent golfers in the UK? Practically everyone here in Finland belongs to a club and those who don't are stuck playing a handful of par-3 courses and even then they usually need to be accompanied by someone who's a member at some club and has passed the golf license test.

We used to have the online verification of returned extra-day scores but they did away with it when the WHS kicked in, most probably because of the PCC and the need to have the scores in the system before they do the PCC run at night. That's a big reason why I dislike PCC.
It's impossible to say how many "independent golers" there are but as England Golf believe they can get 125,000 registered for a handicap in 5 years the number will be higher than that. A lot of clubs have relatively high membership fees and some courses still have waiting lists, before the last lockdown my club was considering putting a cap on numbers an re-introducing a waiting list, this led to a lot of people not being able to get a club locally or not worth the price so they found it was much more economical to pay a fee at a club as and when they wanted to play, deals are available at a lot of clubs if you are prepared to travel.
 

LOS

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#77
I couldn't find anything on the England Golf webite about this.

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2021/02/england-golf-disappointed-isvs-handicap-cost-clubs/

England Golf has released a statement saying that it is disappointed to learn that independent software vendors (ISVs) have passed on a World Handicap System (WHS) cost they have been charged by it to golf clubs.

Under the new WHS, England Golf took over the calculation of a golfer’s handicap from ISVs. As part of the deal, ISVs signed a WHS licence last year to gain access to the new WHS platform, which came with a charge of £74.50 plus VAT every six months for each golf club to which they provide handicapping software, made payable to England Golf.

‘The ISV service charge covers the full cost of all maintenance and ongoing enhancement of the WHS platform and My England Golf app to effectively support golfers and golf clubs,’ reads the statement. ‘It is not an individual charge to golf clubs from England Golf.

‘We have not instructed ISVs to pass on and collect this fee from clubs on our behalf.

‘However, we are aware that some ISVs have now made the business decision to include this service charge in their invoices to golf clubs and we are disappointed that a licence holder would choose to pass the full burden of their responsibility for payment to golf clubs.

‘Should any golf club that has been presented with this scenario and has had a genuine financial challenge in meeting the payment for 2020 (£74.50 during an unprecedented pandemic year), then we would ask you to contact us at whs.support@englandgolf.org to discuss the matter further.’

However, one ISV has said they made it clear from the offset that the cost would be passed on to clubs, and a golf club manager has said he believes the revenue is being used to fund the new independent golfer handicap scheme.

Richard Peabody, managing director of an ISV, Club Systems International (CSI), responded to England Golf’s statement by saying: “CSI made all GB&I governing bodies aware at the outset that any fees levied would have to be passed on in this way.

“CSI have an established business model, which has for many years dealt with the gradual increase in our overheads and other costs. It is an inevitable consequence, in any business, that an increase in unavoidable charges, taxes or fees will be passed on directly to the customer.

“At a time when all golf businesses are struggling and are facing extraordinary challenges ahead, we feel that all stakeholders should be coming together for the good of the game we love.”

Scottish Golf is also charging £149 per club per year.

However, in Wales, which has 141 clubs, the charge is £100 per year (equating to £14,100 of income for the national union), and in Ireland, where there are 418 affiliated golf clubs, the cost is 50 euros (£43), bringing in a total of just under £18,000 for the year.

England has approximately 1,800 golf clubs, meaning the annual charge of £149 each brings in £268,200 of income.

A spokesman for another ISV, who did not wish to be named, said: “Between England, Wales and Ireland, that’s £300,000 per year to run the WHS system. If the money is only being used to fund the system, then presumably all of that is being paid to Dot Golf, which is wholly owned by an overseas governing body, Golf New Zealand.”

One golf club manager added: “This is a poll tax, plain and simple. When the government imposed that, no one blamed the local councils who sent out the bills. There is no doubt in my mind that England Golf are charging this levy to the clubs, via the ISVs, to fund the nomad golfer scheme. Why else would the system cost £270,000 in England and only £17,000 in Ireland?
 

MTR

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#78
USGA pushes 'licensed' handicap system on the rest of the world > national Associations have to pay the license fee > they charge ISVs for interface (not as if those would have a choice) > ISV passes increased costs to clubs. All pretty much standard, so USGA/R&A are basically to blame for using a licensed model and/or the Associations for charging users. Business as usual....all about the money
 
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Halebopp

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#79
USGA pushes 'licensed' handicap system on the rest of the world > national Associations have to pay the license fee > they charge ISVs for interface (not as if those would have a choice) > ISV passes increased costs to clubs. All pretty much standard, so USGA/R&A are basically to blame for using a licensed model and/or the Associations for charging users. Business as usual....all about the money
Probably the reason why the PCC is proprietary information. If I've understood correctly, there used to be several companies providing unofficial (but correct) handicaps in the U.S. but now they all need the license to get access to the PCC. At least in the EGA the calculations for its predecessor, the Computed Buffer Adjustment were publicly available and I assume it was the same for calculating Competition Scratch Score. I still believe we would've been better off without the PCC, or having it limited to competitions only.
 

MTR

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#80
All smoke and mirrors :p.

PCC overall impact will be negligible from a statistics pov, while less meaningful than CBA in those circumstances where that actually came in useful (limited competitions under severe circumstances). Just one more element to create the illusion of a 'all-in' system worth charging (or paying) for.

In the end it is no more accurate or consistent than the older ones and with regional implementation differences should really not be named 'World' HS. Even the previously uniform EGA region now has differing systems in place which don't translate well across the border. While the rules themselves 'discourage' having more than one index worldwide, different implementations and registration systems basically require intl. members to manually adjust (and the committee to verify) their index each time they play cross border on their 'other' home course or keep an automated index on all home courses by manually posting all scores in multiple systems..

For 99% of players it would be easier and just as accurate to agree on the basic calculation method and let clubs/ISV use their own systems to calculate and post as long as it is done tranparently. Every fool and ther dog can then check and recalculate. Oh and while we're at it, drop the faux-accurate decimal. There are only full strokes in golf and whether you round up at.5 or just omit alltogeather makes no difference on the course.
 
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