World handicap system

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#41
I have to say I'm puzzled by the negativity. LOS already cleared up the issue with multiple clubs. The problems you're facing is not with the WHS. But I also have to ask why those scores from France weren't also posted to your CONGU handicap in the first place (and vice versa)?

Also, WalkerCup, how is the higher cap shooting a lower net score any different from CONGU? A net 60 would usually be 10-12 strokes below handicap, so 46-48 points. A 12 would've been cut some 2.5-3 strokes (I can't recall the cut off points for different categories anymore), in the WHS the player would be cut by close to 4 strokes, probably 1.5-2 strokes because of the great differential alone and another 2 strokes for the exceptional score.

And why shouldn't the 30 handicap win if he/she happened to have an even better day? After all handicapped events aren't about who is the best golfer, it's about who happens to have the best day. And if you imply cheating, that's a committee problem, not a WHS one, WHS provide all the tools to deal with it.

Also, pros have handicaps in the WHS unlike in the old EGA and CONGU systems (unless England opted out of that one).

Oh, one more thing, nothing changed in what are acceptable scores in the U.S. and in Europe so the match play argument is moot. (Except for Ireland.)
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#42
I have to say I'm puzzled by the negativity. LOS already cleared up the issue with multiple clubs. The problems you're facing is not with the WHS. But I also have to ask why those scores from France weren't also posted to your CONGU handicap in the first place (and vice versa)?

Also, WalkerCup, how is the higher cap shooting a lower net score any different from CONGU? A net 60 would usually be 10-12 strokes below handicap, so 46-48 points. A 12 would've been cut some 2.5-3 strokes (I can't recall the cut off points for different categories anymore), in the WHS the player would be cut by close to 4 strokes, probably 1.5-2 strokes because of the great differential alone and another 2 strokes for the exceptional score.

And why shouldn't the 30 handicap win if he/she happened to have an even better day? After all handicapped events aren't about who is the best golfer, it's about who happens to have the best day. And if you imply cheating, that's a committee problem, not a WHS one, WHS provide all the tools to deal with it.

Also, pros have handicaps in the WHS unlike in the old EGA and CONGU systems (unless England opted out of that one).

Oh, one more thing, nothing changed in what are acceptable scores in the U.S. and in Europe so the match play argument is moot. (Except for Ireland.)
CONGU handicapping system does not allow scores from other handicapping federations unless in a WAGR event. So I had to have an EGA handicap in France and a CONGU handicap in UK. England Golf whom I would class as my home association wouldn’t allow a merge of my scores from Le Touquet into my CONGU scores, I’d worked out my WHS would have been 0.4 if merged.
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#43
I am surprised England Golf couldn't give you any advice as it is covered in the WHS.

View attachment 9958

CONGU also offered some guidance

View attachment 9959
LOS, 1.4b is for someone with 2 clubs in CONGU jurisdiction. They even say the facility to merge scores is unavailable. I managed to get some score processed over the years by posting my scorecards to the county secretary (being cat1).
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#44
I have to say I'm puzzled by the negativity. LOS already cleared up the issue with multiple clubs. The problems you're facing is not with the WHS. But I also have to ask why those scores from France weren't also posted to your CONGU handicap in the first place (and vice versa)?

Also, WalkerCup, how is the higher cap shooting a lower net score any different from CONGU? A net 60 would usually be 10-12 strokes below handicap, so 46-48 points. A 12 would've been cut some 2.5-3 strokes (I can't recall the cut off points for different categories anymore), in the WHS the player would be cut by close to 4 strokes, probably 1.5-2 strokes because of the great differential alone and another 2 strokes for the exceptional score.

And why shouldn't the 30 handicap win if he/she happened to have an even better day? After all handicapped events aren't about who is the best golfer, it's about who happens to have the best day. And if you imply cheating, that's a committee problem, not a WHS one, WHS provide all the tools to deal with it.

Also, pros have handicaps in the WHS unlike in the old EGA and CONGU systems (unless England opted out of that one).

Oh, one more thing, nothing changed in what are acceptable scores in the U.S. and in Europe so the match play argument is moot. (Except for Ireland.)
Pros ‘can’ have club handicaps for club competitions only if they wish.
 

LOS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
#45
LOS, 1.4b is for someone with 2 clubs in CONGU jurisdiction. They even say the facility to merge scores is unavailable. I managed to get some score processed over the years by posting my scorecards to the county secretary (being cat1).
No. 1.4b/3 clearly states different jurisdictions.

1606077899402.png

1606078674367.png

The "Authorised Associations" can be found using https://www.whs.com/#association
 

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#46
Pros ‘can’ have club handicaps for club competitions only if they wish.

Ok, not allowing scores from other jurisdictions is pretty weird but that's all on CONGU.

As for pros not having handicaps, that must be one of the national differences again. Every pro in Finland has a handicap, it comes automatically with the club (and golf union) membership and a player can only lose it because of disciplinary actions against him/her.
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#47

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#48
Ok, not allowing scores from other jurisdictions is pretty weird but that's all on CONGU.

As for pros not having handicaps, that must be one of the national differences again. Every pro in Finland has a handicap, it comes automatically with the club (and golf union) membership and a player can only lose it because of disciplinary actions against him/her.
I don’t find it weird at all. Pros having handicaps is weird!!! You’re a pro for a reason, you play off scratch and don’t have any nett scoring..... simple. I don’t see a list of handicaps next to names on the masters scoreboard?????

Handicaps should remain for Amateurs only, except club committee issued handicaps for their club pro(s) to play in club comps only.
 

LOS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2015
Local club/country
England
#49
LOS, not arguing on this but England Golf clearly stated that if you have an EGA and a CONGU handicap they cannot be merged and you have 2 indexes. They also repeated that scores can only count against the registration used and it should be the lowest available 🤷🏽‍♂️
If CONGU's guidance is to be believed then in your situation you would take your scores from your in English Club to your French Club and have them input the data in time order into their system to update their Handicap index for you and on your return to England you would get your English club to input your French Club's record , again in time order, into the English system.
 

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#50
I don’t find it weird at all. Pros having handicaps is weird!!! You’re a pro for a reason, you play off scratch and don’t have any nett scoring..... simple. I don’t see a list of handicaps next to names on the masters scoreboard?????

Handicaps should remain for Amateurs only, except club committee issued handicaps for their club pro(s) to play in club comps only.
I don't see anything weird in a golfer having a handicap. And while handicaps and handicapped competitions are closely related, they are completely separate issues.
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#51
If CONGU's guidance is to be believed then in your situation you would take your scores from your in English Club to your French Club and have them input the data in time order into their system to update their Handicap index for you and on your return to England you would get your English club to input your French Club's record , again in time order, into the English system.

Thats not a world handicap, that is an English handicap and french handicap..... FLAWED. Anyway, moot point now, I've renounced my amateur status
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#52
And while handicaps and handicapped competitions are closely related, they are completely separate issues.
That makes no sense? Handicaps are required for handicap competitions. There is no issue surrounding them???? I think the point is lost here
 

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#53
That makes no sense? Handicaps are required for handicap competitions. There is no issue surrounding them???? I think the point is lost here
Handicap Index is the measure of a player's ability and as such has value on its own right. While handicapped competitions require handicaps, the reverse is not true, handicaps don't require handicapped competitions.

Also, I can't see why some golfers should be denied the service of being provided with a handicap just for being a professional despite paying the same club and national union membership fees as all the amateurs pay.
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#54
Handicap Index is the measure of a player's ability and as such has value on its own right. While handicapped competitions require handicaps, the reverse is not true, handicaps don't require handicapped competitions.

Also, I can't see why some golfers should be denied the service of being provided with a handicap just for being a professional despite paying the same club and national union membership fees as all the amateurs pay.
a) don’t pay same club fees (get a discount as a playing professional)
b) don’t pay Union fees, that’s an amateur thing. We pay PGA membership.
 

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#55
a) don’t pay same club fees (get a discount as a playing professional)
b) don’t pay Union fees, that’s an amateur thing. We pay PGA membership.
Those things are different then. Finnish law requires all members of a given club, association (or whatever) from political parties to sporting clubs to pay the same annual membership fees. And the national golf union membership is included in our club memberships.
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 5.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
Irons
Mizuno MP-5 (4-PW) NS Pro 1150 Stiff
Driver
Callaway Rogue 10.5 MRC Tensei Orange 60s
#56
Handicap Index is the measure of a player's ability and as such has value on its own right. While handicapped competitions require handicaps, the reverse is not true, handicaps don't require handicapped competitions.
As you have mentioned above, your country has been using WHS for several months before here in the UK - You should have a better idea of whether the new Handicap Index is indeed a "measure of a player's ability"? - Looking from the outside, a CONGU handicap was such a measure, provided the holder played regularly in competitions (or other qualifying rounds)
WHS does not appear to me to do the same, as your handicap index is based on your most recent 20 rounds - As a retired person I can play 20 rounds in just over a month, so my current handicap index of 3.0 (itself based on scores back to Feb 2018 on a course I was very familiar with) is likely to change drastically after a months worth of play? - This is based on how I have been scoring at my current course, which I am still getting the hang of after just over a year - Maybe after nearly 60 years of playing this game (I started when I was four) I will have a handicap index that, for the first time ever, evokes the "bandit" moniker?
Paul
 

MTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
HCP
f0re
Local club/country
EU
Irons
MP-9-11-14-29-37
#57
Both the old (EGA/CONGU) and new (WHS) systems define themselves as to indicate the "measure of a player's ability". When and if used properly it is safe to say they all do. To which extend mostly depends on the volume of rounds played and if all eligible scores are submitted. Since WHS is basically a rolling average over the last 8/20 scores rather than the previous 'relatively adjustment' method, it should adjust more quickly to a players current ability. Since the best 8 are picked it trends more towards best proven ability than just an average. Scores from years ago have very little to do with actual ability . I used to be able to dunk a basketball from a standing jump. Safe to say I cannot, just as I don't swing my driver in excess of 115mph anymore ;)

In the end it is pretty easy to determine if it is accurate: play a lot, submit all scores and see if you play to your index when you are on form.
 

Halebopp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
HCP
10.6
Local club/country
Lakeside Golf Vammala, Finland
Irons
MP-H5/4/53
Driver
ST180
#58
As you have mentioned above, your country has been using WHS for several months before here in the UK - You should have a better idea of whether the new Handicap Index is indeed a "measure of a player's ability"? - Looking from the outside, a CONGU handicap was such a measure, provided the holder played regularly in competitions (or other qualifying rounds)
WHS does not appear to me to do the same, as your handicap index is based on your most recent 20 rounds - As a retired person I can play 20 rounds in just over a month, so my current handicap index of 3.0 (itself based on scores back to Feb 2018 on a course I was very familiar with) is likely to change drastically after a months worth of play? - This is based on how I have been scoring at my current course, which I am still getting the hang of after just over a year - Maybe after nearly 60 years of playing this game (I started when I was four) I will have a handicap index that, for the first time ever, evokes the "bandit" moniker?
Paul
Like MTR said, they all measure ability, only in different ways. I have around 15-20 qualifying scores out of the 70-80 played rounds each year, 17 this year and my Index went up by 0.5 or 0.6 strokes. But I would've ended up right where I started from had I just happened to pre-register one of my very good rounds (39-40 points).

If you were to play 20 qualifying scores in a month, wouldn't the Handicap Index be a pretty accurate measure of your current abilities as a golfer at the very moment? It would definitely be a better representation than a handicap which includes scores that date back almost three years.

As for having a handicap mostly based on a course you know inside out or one based on a course that doesn't really fit into the Course Rating System (players across the board fail to play to the level they should), that's a different issue. I've talked about my home club and how our tougher course is not only tough but also has bad Course and Slope Ratings. I'd personally feel like a bandit if I were to start playing qualifying rounds on that course (outside of competitions). I could easily add four strokes to my Index, possibly even more, and I would know the Index wouldn't be a true representation of my skills on practically any other course.

But if we only had that one course, I most certainly wouldn't worry about it. But our club would definitely have a bad reputation as a result of our well-travelling handicaps. :)
 

Brattz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Derby, Derbyshire
HCP
Pro
Local club/country
Derby Golf Centre
Irons
Mizuno JPX 919 Tour (4-PW) - Project X LZ 6.5 120g - 0.5° Flat - 1/2"+
Driver
Titleist TS3 - HC Project X LZ17 6.5 60g, 9.5°, A1 - 11g
#59
Those things are different then. Finnish law requires all members of a given club, association (or whatever) from political parties to sporting clubs to pay the same annual membership fees. And the national golf union membership is included in our club memberships.
Yeah, to be a member of a golf club in Uk you have to pay county and national golf union fees. These don’t apply however to professionals who pay a PGA membership and have to designate an attachment
 

PaulBoy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
HCP
WHS 5.2
Local club/country
Army GC & New Forest GC
Irons
Mizuno MP-5 (4-PW) NS Pro 1150 Stiff
Driver
Callaway Rogue 10.5 MRC Tensei Orange 60s
#60
If you were to play 20 qualifying scores in a month, wouldn't the Handicap Index be a pretty accurate measure of your current abilities as a golfer at the very moment? It would definitely be a better representation than a handicap which includes scores that date back almost three years.
I see what you are saying & yes, once my Handicap Index levels off from where it is now (imo a ridiculous 3.0) to something more reflective of my ability at my new club, then the amount of rounds I can potentially play SHOULD then give me an reasonably accurate Handicap Index - Fortunately as a relatively "old geezer" I don't suffer from the need for a "vanity handicap" - Nice as it has been to play to a single figure CONGU handicap for about 30-40 years I have no problem if my WHS Handicap Index turns out to be significantly higher ...
Paul
Edit: Actually I can put my sombrero away! - Reading the WHS Golfer Toolkit there is a 5 shot upper limit on handicaps in WHS - The highest handicap index I could achieve in a calendar year is 7.6 (having started the year on 2.6)
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom