World handicap system

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#1
Keen to hear what other people think of this new system. As an inconsistent but occasionally capable player I fear it favours the likes of me rather than the consistent good golfer. I always thought the handicap was meant to be a reflection of your best golf. This average of best 8 out of last 20 can't do good club golfers any favours.
 

MTR

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#2
It depends on what you'd call 'favoring'. Properly utilized it should make hcps more in line with current form over previous ability. If occasionally capable for you is close to 8 times out of twenty, your hcp will reflect your ability, if less than 8 it will be higher. A lot depends on the oversight of the hcp committee, they need to be on point to weed out the sandbaggers and vanity cappers. Most low songle digit golfers who regularly play their handicap can drop a few tents to even a point, but most golfers' hcp will go up in transition. What happens when up and running is hard to predict, depending on individual bandwidth of scores.
 
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#3
It depends on what you'd call 'favoring'. Properly utilized it should make hcps more in line with current form over previous ability. If occasionally capable for you is close to 8 times out of twenty, your hcp will reflect your ability, if less than 8 it will be higher. A lot depends on the oversight of the hcp committee, they need to be on point to weed out the sandbaggers and vanity cappers. Most low songle digit golfers who regularly play their handicap can drop a few tents to even a point, but most golfers' hcp will go up in transition. What happens when up and running is hard to predict, depending on individual bandwidth of scores.
Thank you for the reply. That's a great explanation. I just don't want to shoot a score aided by an inflated handicap. Not that it happens very often but would feel wrong to tear it up with extra shots if you know what I mean. At the moment my golf is in the at/below handicap less than 8 times per year. Suppose the aim of this game is to get better. Just have to practice as much as possible over winter. Feel for club handicap committee. Golfers like a whinge at the best of times. Good luck to them.
 

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#4
I have been doing a lot of research in the build up to the WHS going live on Monday 2nd November '20 - At first I was at a loss to fathom why someone like me would be allocated a Handicap Index of 2.6 when my CONGU handicap was 4.5 - There are quite a few threads on GolfWRX (yes there are other golf forums!) & this is how it was explained to me ... The Handicap Index is an estimation of what I would score on a golf course with a Slope Rating of 113 (the "world average" course difficulty) - My Handicap Index was calculated based on my best 8 scores for the last 20 competition (or other qualifying) rounds, taking into consideration the Slope Rating of the courses those rounds were played on - In my case that would be SR 127 @ Guildford & SR 121 @ Army - Most people I have spoken to, admittedly mainly high handicap senior golfers, have been given Handicap Indexes higher than their current CONGU handicap - Maybe, over time, the WHS will work, but for me, & probably a lot of others, it will take many months or years for the Handicap Index to become a true reflection of our playing ability?
Paul
 
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#5
I have been doing a lot of research in the build up to the WHS going live on Monday 2nd November '20 - At first I was at a loss to fathom why someone like me would be allocated a Handicap Index of 2.6 when my CONGU handicap was 4.5 - There are quite a few threads on GolfWRX (yes there are other golf forums!) & this is how it was explained to me ... The Handicap Index is an estimation of what I would score on a golf course with a Slope Rating of 113 (the "world average" course difficulty) - My Handicap Index was calculated based on my best 8 scores for the last 20 competition (or other qualifying) rounds, taking into consideration the Slope Rating of the courses those rounds were played on - In my case that would be SR 127 @ Guildford & SR 121 @ Army - Most people I have spoken to, admittedly mainly high handicap senior golfers, have been given Handicap Indexes higher than their current CONGU handicap - Maybe, over time, the WHS will work, but for me, & probably a lot of others, it will take many months or years for the Handicap Index to become a true reflection of our playing ability?
Paul
Losing two shots at your level seems extreme! I understand some courses are more difficult than others but have you lost shots because the courses you play are deemed harder than average? Surely at single figure level, the difficulty of the course becomes less of an issue...unless your home track is a pitch and putt? There are course I wouldn't get anywhere near my handicap on (links golf) because I'm too erratic off the tee, but would hazard a guess that if you're good enough to get to 5, that's going to be less of an issue for you. The slope rating is another good point. Surely a good bit of how difficult a course is down to how it's set up. Very quick greens and evil pin positions can make a normal course extremely tricky.
 

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#6
Coming from CONGU, the biggest impact is the implementation of Slope vs SSS. The EGA system already used this, so for the rest of the EU the effect is relatively limited along the lines of my first post. If your home course recieved a relatively high rating your initial cap can drop significantly, as illustrated by PB. Fortunately it will (should?) pretty much even out within those 20 rounds, so as long as you play enough, your cap will quickly adjust to reflect your level.

To quote England Golf: "
“The most significant factors involved in determining Slope Rating are length, trees, rough and water hazards. Because bogey golfers typically demonstrate a wider shot dispersion, these obstacles are expected to penalise them more than a scratch player, creating a higher expected score, resulting in a higher Slope Rating. Our current CONGU system works on the basis that the relative difficulty of a course for all players is represented by the Scratch Rating (SSS) and means a single handicap mark can be used on every course we play.This changes when WHS comes into force. By using a Slope Rating, it will recognise that relative difficulty affects golfers in different ways and that a number of factors are at work.How good is the golfer who is playing the course? How long is the course? Where are the hazards found? So a Slope Rating takes that relative difficulty of a course and the player’s WHS Handicap Index to calculate a Course Handicap for each course and each set of tees for every player. Remember your WHS Handicap Index is not your playing handicap. Every time you go to the course, that mark will be adjusted for Slope for the course, or tees, that is being played.

My personal pet peeve is that there is no longer a difference between casual rounds and tournament scores.

EDIT: in theory the PCC calculation should correct extreme weather & course conditions, though I believe it will take a few iterations before they get it right.

Feel for club handicap committee. Golfers like a whinge at the best of times. Good luck to them.
Thanks, we'll need it ;)
 
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#7
Yes, I appreciate under WHS I have been allocated an Index and my Course Handicap (CH) will vary from course to course ... However, Slope Rating (SR) is another can of worms in my opinion - My brothers course in ROI (Glashedy Links, Ballyliffin) has an SR of 138 which would only add one shot to my CH - That course is at least 3 shots harder than my old CONGU 5 handicap & probably closer to 5 shots harder? - In over 20 rounds I managed to play to handicap once? - Does SR not consider prevailing conditions of a course? - Ballyliffin is always windy (their idea of a breeze is a 3 club wind) & I have played many times when I was happy to break 100 - I suppose if you're a golfer who travels the world the WHS is great, but for myself playing the majority of my golf on my home courses, not so much ...
Paul
PS - According to England Golf profile: 2.6 Index = Top 1% Army GC / Top 2% Hampshire / Top 2% England (did I ever imagine that!)
 
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MTR

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#8
Properly implemented (it's a 125+ page manual and imho very dependent on the skill level between the indivudual rating teams) Slope should reflect prevailing playing conditions, but especially links can be tricky to get right. The idea behind PCC is for it to mitigate extreme conditions by creating an adjustment to the slope based on a days actual results. Of course, when you happen to play an unfamiliar course on a tough day in a field of good players who can handle the elements it's not going to help much, but that's what makes them good players. If you play mostly on your home course in a home field, WHS is actually not going to matter a lot in the end. Your index might be different, but over time actual scores and competition results should pretty much fall in line with previous years.

EDIT: after taking a look at both courses PB mentions (never played either) with SSS&CR lower than Par and a modest slope, they're relatively short & easy. Going from those to long(er) and tougher courses even good players mostly can't scale up their game enough to keep pace with players of similar cap accustomed to those longer/harder courses. They're just not able to or comfortable with the shots you have to hit there since they don't need to hit them at home. That would explain why a WHS index can be lower than a CONGU index and still won't travel well to tough tracks.
 
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#9
There are a couple of issues to address.

Firstly, the PCC does not consider the actual playing conditions, it merely looks at the scores posted and compares them to the expected range and deviation of scores. If there's a big enough difference between the two, a PCC adjustment will be something else than 0. I'm fairly certain the Competition Scratch Score in CONGU worked in a similar fashion. It should kick in in about 5-10% of the days. At my club it has affected 8% of the days on the easier course and around 25% of the days on the tougher course (which doesn't fit the rating system very well).

Secondly, for some odd reason CONGU decided to count the Course Handicap using the formula CH = Handicap Index * Slope Rating/113. As far as I'm aware, every other authority stuck with, or like the USGA, moved to the equation CH = HI * Slope/113 + (Course Rating - Par). Because you don't have the (CR - Par) adjustment in the UK, your Course Handicaps don't really work as a way to compare the difficultness of two different courses and sets of tees.

When they designed the whole Course Rating System, their studies showed that on average players' scores went up by 1.13 strokes for every one-stroke increase in their handicaps. Thus the divisor 113. But because that divisor is used, the Slope Rating needs to go up by 11.3 points for a 10 handicap to receive an extra stroke because of the Slope. A 5 would need the Slope to go up 22.6 points to get an extra stroke but for a 20 only a 5.65-point increase is needed.

For example, a par 72 course with a Course Rating of 70.7 and a Slope of 123 is more difficult to a 10 handicap than a 69.2/138 despite the player getting more strokes on the latter (11 and 12 respectively) in the CONGU WHS. If you included the CR - Par, the same player would get 10 and 9 strokes respectively.
 

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#10
EDIT: after taking a look at both courses PB mentions (never played either) with SSS&CR lower than Par and a modest slope, they're relatively short & easy. Going from those to long(er) and tougher courses even good players mostly can't scale up their game enough to keep pace with players of similar cap accustomed to those longer/harder courses. They're just not able to or comfortable with the shots you have to hit there since they don't need to hit them at home. That would explain why a WHS index can be lower than a CONGU index and still won't travel well to tough tracks.
Based on this MTR would I be correct to believe that a player with a similar CONGU 5 handicap to myself who plays at a course with a high Slope Rating (like the 138 of Ballyliffin) would then be allocated a considerably lower Handicap Index (assuming both players top 8 scores out of 20 were similar)? - The Handicap Index after all is the score you are expected to make on a "world average" course with SR of 113 - If that were the case then the anomaly of players with the same CONGU handicap, but who play at completely different courses in terms of difficulty, would be resolved? - I'm sure we have all played against people from other clubs & thought "wow, if that guy played at my club his handicap would be so much lower (or higher)" - For example, my brother is a 10 handicap at Ballyliffin, but playing on various courses here in England he would easily be half that ...
Paul
 

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#11
Based on this MTR would I be correct to believe that a player with a similar CONGU 5 handicap to myself who plays at a course with a high Slope Rating (like the 138 of Ballyliffin) would then be allocated a considerably lower Handicap Index (assuming both players top 8 scores out of 20 were similar)? - The Handicap Index after all is the score you are expected to make on a "world average" course with SR of 113 - If that were the case then the anomaly of players with the same CONGU handicap, but who play at completely different courses in terms of difficulty, would be resolved? - I'm sure we have all played against people from other clubs & thought "wow, if that guy played at my club his handicap would be so much lower (or higher)" - For example, my brother is a 10 handicap at Ballyliffin, but playing on various courses here in England he would easily be half that ...
Paul
It should be stressed that the Slope Rating doesn't tell you anything about how difficult a course is, you have to consider it alongside the Course Rating. All the courses are rated for scratch and bogey golfers and are handed Course and Bogey Ratings respectively. Slope merely depicts the difference between the two.

That being said, say you have two courses, course A is rated 70.7/120 (you'd struggle to find courses with Slope around 113 or below) and course B (for Ballyliffin) at 70.7/138 and you have players A and B playing only at their respective home courses and both continuously shoot the Adjusted Gross Scores of 79.

Player A, playing the lower-slope course A would end up with a Handicap Index of 7.8 and player B would end up as a 6.8.

On course A, player A would get 8 strokes and player B would get 7 strokes. On course B they'd get 10 and 8 strokes respectively.
 

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#12
As Halebopp states: slope is basically a correction of the Course rating for non-scratch golfers.113 is more a mathematical baseline then an actual average. The difference between par and CR is way more important to determine playing hcp. It looks like Ballyliffin has a CR/SSS at least 2 higher than par and Army probably is pretty much 0.

One of the arguments behind the WHS and with it Course/Slope rating, is that they are designed make handicaps more portable. A player should have an index that travels well to different courses. If you regularly shoot 75 on a tough track, you'll end up a lower index than someone who does the same on an easier course.
 
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#13
Also 113 is more a baseline number than an actual average. AFAIK 125 is the slope used by England Golf when none is provided. That doesn't change the math, but it illustrated that more courses will be way over 113 than below.
Yep, we set up "easy tees" last year, basically teeing areas at the start of fairways etc. and it came out as a 3 662-meter par 71. That set of tees has a Slope Rating of 112 for men and 109 for the ladies. Otherwise the lowest Slope Ratings I've come across are in the low 120s.

Those Slope Ratings are also a good example of how the ratings work. It has a lower Slope for the ladies as it does for men. So, if we used the UK Course Handicap calculation and disregarded the Course Rating, a 36 handicap man would get his 36 strokes and the lady would get only 35 strokes. Certainly a course and a set of tees can't be easier for a lady than it is for a man with the same Handicap Index?

We only get to that erroneous conclusion because the Course Ratings were left out of the equation. The CR for men is 59.6 and for the ladies it's 62.9. Under the EGA jurisdiction the man would have a Course Handicap of 24 and the lady's is 27.
 

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#14
Yep, we set up "easy tees" last year, basically teeing areas at the start of fairways etc. and it came out as a 3 662-meter par 71. That set of tees has a Slope Rating of 112 for men and 109 for the ladies. Otherwise the lowest Slope Ratings I've come across are in the low 120s.
LOL, we have those set up throughout for a few years now (to enable our super seniors & kids to play). For men bang at 113@4600m, but the CR is 8 lower than par because it is so short. I'd have too shoot 64 just to play to my handicap and with the dog legs my short game needs to be on point to do that :) For women the CR is only 3 lower than par and SR 117 from the same tees. Ergo, Slope without CR is useless/nonsensical.
 

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#15
Yep, we set up "easy tees" last year, basically teeing areas at the start of fairways etc. and it came out as a 3 662-meter par 71. That set of tees has a Slope Rating of 112 for men and 109 for the ladies. Otherwise the lowest Slope Ratings I've come across are in the low 120s.
One of the courses I play (New Forest GC) has Slope Rating of 110 & Course Rating of 66.5 - So on the face of it an easy course? - Yes & no - There are 4x Par 5's (three of which I have a good chance of reaching in two) - But there are 7x Par 3's some of which are either short & tricky, or one which stretches over 200y and can be a driver for me on some days - Most greens are small & flat with only a few exceptions - Off my old CONGU 5 handicap I would have to play poorly to not score to handicap & I did shoot my lowest round to par there (-6) but the SR of 110 is misleading imho - They have a Pro-Am each year and the Pros do not tear the course apart as you might expect (usually 2 or 3 under par to win) - The Pros cite it as "short but tricky", so SR & CR isn't the be all & end all for NFGC
I wonder what course is the "Most Difficult" in terms of SR & CR? - The highest I have seen is Carnoustie Blue (Par 72) CR 77.4 / SR 143 (clucking bell :eek:)
Paul
 

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#16
Yup, you always have to take into account par, SR/CR and length. If the greens are relatively small/firm you should see that reflected in the slope rating though. FWIW for me Carnoustie is right up there with the toughest in the UK, even under normal conditions. Valderama in summertime can be like playing on marble (par 71) 76.1/146@6988y & Kiawa's Ocean Course has the highest rating I know of: 79.6/155@7356y.
 

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#17
One of the courses I play (New Forest GC) has Slope Rating of 110 & Course Rating of 66.5 - So on the face of it an easy course? - Yes & no - There are 4x Par 5's (three of which I have a good chance of reaching in two) - But there are 7x Par 3's some of which are either short & tricky, or one which stretches over 200y and can be a driver for me on some days - Most greens are small & flat with only a few exceptions - Off my old CONGU 5 handicap I would have to play poorly to not score to handicap & I did shoot my lowest round to par there (-6) but the SR of 110 is misleading imho - They have a Pro-Am each year and the Pros do not tear the course apart as you might expect (usually 2 or 3 under par to win) - The Pros cite it as "short but tricky", so SR & CR isn't the be all & end all for NFGC
I wonder what course is the "Most Difficult" in terms of SR & CR? - The highest I have seen is Carnoustie Blue (Par 72) CR 77.4 / SR 143 (clucking bell :eek:)
Paul
You can't look at the Course Rating in isolation. A 66.5 rating on a par 73 would mean it's easy for a scratch golfer but your course is a par 69, so the difference is only -2.5 strokes. In my experience the vast majority of men's regular tees (such distinctions should be done away with though) are rated 1-2 strokes lower than the course par. So, looking purely at the Course Rating, I'd say the course is about 0.5-1 strokes easier for the scratch golfer than most other courses I'm familiar with.

As for the slope rating, it's practically irrelevant to you as a 3 handicap. The Slope Rating would need to move 38 points for you to lose or gain a full stroke. You'd need to shoot even par to play that course to your handicap.

The rating system certainly isn't perfect. You could simplify that the Course Rating tells about the length of the course and Slope tells us about the obstacles on the course (bunkers, penalty areas, extreme rough, OB etc.). We have a course at our home club that doesn't fit into the system, if I were to base my handicap on rounds played on that course, I'd be a 21 in no time as opposed to the 12 I'm now and the vast majority of players struggle to play the course to their handicaps. I would feel like a cheater if I registered to play qualifying rounds on that course.
 

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#18
One of the courses I play (New Forest GC) has Slope Rating of 110 & Course Rating of 66.5 - So on the face of it an easy course? - Yes & no - There are 4x Par 5's (three of which I have a good chance of reaching in two) - But there are 7x Par 3's some of which are either short & tricky, or one which stretches over 200y and can be a driver for me on some days - Most greens are small & flat with only a few exceptions - Off my old CONGU 5 handicap I would have to play poorly to not score to handicap & I did shoot my lowest round to par there (-6) but the SR of 110 is misleading imho - They have a Pro-Am each year and the Pros do not tear the course apart as you might expect (usually 2 or 3 under par to win) - The Pros cite it as "short but tricky", so SR & CR isn't the be all & end all for NFGC
I wonder what course is the "Most Difficult" in terms of SR & CR? - The highest I have seen is Carnoustie Blue (Par 72) CR 77.4 / SR 143 (clucking bell :eek:)
Paul
We play a course in Northern France on our yearly golf trip, Belle Dune. Off the whites it’s slope index 146, Par 71. It’s only around 6,700yds but is an absolute brute. Miss the fairway and you are in Jungle or Sandy Brush. The best score on average each year on our trip is around 32-35 and that’s an outlier!!! 30 is good!!!
Put in perspective, 146 is 2 higher than Winged Foot West (144) off the US Open tees and just 2 less than Bethpage Black US Open tees (148).
 

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#19
Someone with a 48 handicap has managed to shoot 31 points over 9 holes in our winter league today in absolutely horrible conditions including heavy rain and winds. Should add it was the B nine which is harder. They'll not get cut because it's non qualifying. Absolute joke. If they're capable of that score today I'd hate to see them in good weather. At the risk of sounding bitter it really makes entering competitions pointless for the rest of the club. I'd hate to be the person who came second (it wasn't me).
That's the problem we are all going to face I'm afraid - One of the prime objective's of WHS was to make golf "more inclusive" which means that everyone, regardless of ability, can obtain a handicap (up to 54 I believe?) & head out on the course in all types of golf, including competitions - I don't object to this in principal, but don't like the sound of what happened in your case - I just wouldn't play in such an event, which sadly might mean I won't be playing in much competition golf anymore? - It has taken me a lifetime to play golf to the standard I have achieved & I just can't see the point in attempting to play against Mr 48 Handicap from your club in any type of game...
Paul
 
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#20
That's the problem we are all going to face I'm afraid - One of the prime objective's of WHS was to make golf "more inclusive" which means that everyone, regardless of ability, can obtain a handicap (up to 54 I believe?) & head out on the course in all types of golf, including competitions - I don't object to this in principal, but don't like the sound of what happened in your case - I just wouldn't play in such an event, which sadly might mean I won't be playing in much competition golf anymore? - It has taken me a lifetime to play golf to the standard I have achieved & I just can't see the point in attempting to play against Mr 48 Handicap from your club in any type of game...
Paul
I had a but of posters remorse after putting this up last night thinking perhaps I was a bit harsh, but it's not a level playing field and definitely disadvantages better players! (Not counting myself as a better player btw) Difficult problem for clubs to solve. Can they have more divisions in the summer and then end up with some super high handicap division with a field of 3? I fear for club competitions until this works itself out.
 
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