Has the WHS been thought through properly?

mick59

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#1
We've just played our first competition and the WHS is unbelievably difficult to comprehend. I play off 10.7. Played with a lad off 10.3 and we both received 10 shots (unfair!) The winner had a 66 playing off 24.8 and he got reduced to 23.9 (-9). 2nd was off 8.1 reduced to 7.6 (-5). 1 new member off 17.3 shot a 77 and received a full shot back and another off 8.7 shot a 71 and also received a full shot back!! Work that one out!
 

CH919Forged

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#2
Imho no it hasn't. Handicap seems to fluctuate wildly. Got cut 0.1 for 33 points last week. There's a very cynical side of me thinking the whole system was dreamt up to allow American tourists to play in open competitions here. This would jack the green fees wildly on popular courses for the local visiting club golfer for open comps in the summer. Then covid happened. I could be completely wrong and there's many more knowledgeable people on here who may have a better insight.
 

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#3
As I have mentioned on other posts WHS, in my experience, has not imho been the success the golf authorities were hoping for - I can understand that the CONGU system was far from perfect & was really based around a players ability & performance in competition golf - It made no allowance for the level of difficulty of one course versus another (which WHS addresses with Slope) but WHS is based around this theory that every card you submit will be used to determine your "current playing ability" based on the best eight qualifying scores out of your last 20 cards - Before WHS started, my club said you should pre-register every round you play & submit your card (played under the rules of golf) signed by another player - Now we are being told there is no obligation to do so? - WHS however says submitting every card shows your current level of ability (again based on the best 8 cards out of 20) - This is the reason (as mentioned above) that strange things can happen when a card (good or not so good) is submitted - Once you have 20 recorded scores, the next card you submit will knock card 20 out of your 20 - Regardless of whatever the score of card 20 is, the newly submitted card can cause a change in handicap, especially if card 20 was one of your best 8 scores? - I also have had my Handicap Index increase despite submitting a score on or around handicap (no such thing as the old "buffer zone" anymore)
As I also mentioned before, on transition my WHS Index was set to 2.6 (from 5.4 on CONGU) - Having never been lower than 4hcp in my life this was a bit of a shock, but no amount of constructive argument with my Secretary, County or England Golf could have that changed? - So I began submitting cards for all the rounds I played (& continue to do so) - My Handicap Index is now 7.0 & I feel I can be competitive again (though refuse to play in competitions as even off 7 I can't compete with the over 30 handicap brigade shooting 50pts!)
Sorry if this comes over as a rant, but I am not a fan of WHS! - Suffice to say that my competitive golf days are over & golf is just a social thing for me now - I feel sorry for the younger golfers & wish them all good luck with WHS & all it's inclusivity BS!
Paul
 
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#4
As I have mentioned on other posts WHS, in my experience, has not imho been the success the golf authorities were hoping for - I can understand that the CONGU system was far from perfect & was really based around a players ability & performance in competition golf - It made no allowance for the level of difficulty of one course versus another (which WHS addresses with Slope) but WHS is based around this theory that every card you submit will be used to determine your "current playing ability" based on the best eight qualifying scores out of your last 20 cards - Before WHS started, my club said you should pre-register every round you play & submit your card (played under the rules of golf) signed by another player - Now we are being told there is no obligation to do so? - WHS however says submitting every card shows your current level of ability (again based on the best 8 cards out of 20) - This is the reason (as mentioned above) that strange things can happen when a card (good or not so good) is submitted - Once you have 20 recorded scores, the next card you submit will knock card 20 out of your 20 - Regardless of whatever the score of card 20 is, the newly submitted card can cause a change in handicap, especially if card 20 was one of your best 8 scores? - I also have had my Handicap Index increase despite submitting a score on or around handicap (no such thing as the old "buffer zone" anymore)
As I also mentioned before, on transition my WHS Index was set to 2.6 (from 5.4 on CONGU) - Having never been lower than 4hcp in my life this was a bit of a shock, but no amount of constructive argument with my Secretary, County or England Golf could have that changed? - So I began submitting cards for all the rounds I played (& continue to do so) - My Handicap Index is now 7.0 & I feel I can be competitive again (though refuse to play in competitions as even off 7 I can't compete with the over 30 handicap brigade shooting 50pts!)
Sorry if this comes over as a rant, but I am not a fan of WHS! - Suffice to say that my competitive golf days are over & golf is just a social thing for me now - I feel sorry for the younger golfers & wish them all good luck with WHS & all it's inclusivity BS!
Paul
It encourages all permutations of handicap manipulation if you think about it and yes don't forget our friend Brattz has turned professional now as he didn't want to tussle with WHS. I do think the Amateur game was a driving force if you take the British Amateur , true British golfers were not getting into the event due their handicaps being too high, whilst other countries players drifted in easily, but shot scores not in tandem to what their handicap was. New WHS will mean more home grown players will be successful entering and securing a berth in the event and similar.

A find of mine shout 7 under gross the other month and came 13th in the competition, he would have had to shoot 13 under gross to have come 3rd off his plus 2 handicap.

I know of a large number of guys, who would be matchplay specialists do not enter events now due to the handicap allowances. You could play out of your skin and get emptied 5 and 4 by a golfer off 37.

The old adage, you Category one golfers win too much, seems to have been taken care of now with WHS :)
 

Halebopp

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#5
I feel the need to defend the WHS system. There are some problems with it, from my point of view the biggest one being the PCC because of which score attestation was thrown out the window. People can return any scores they want online without the need for an electronic verification by the marker.

I have a feeling the original rant was posted on GolfWRX and there's absolutely nothing unfair about two players having a skill difference of 0.4 strokes having to play off the same handicap. It's more likely for two such players to play off the same than not to. Here's my reply from over there:

"If I understood you correctly, the winner's differential was 7.2 strokes better than the 8th best differential from the past 20 rounds before the competition round. (0.9 * 8 = 7.2)

As for the player finishing second, the differential from the competition score was 4.0 strokes better than the old 8th best differential. (0.5 * 8 = 4.0)

I assume a "full shot back" means their handicaps went up by a full stroke. In such a situation they would've had a very good differential as their 20th score and the good differential dropped off the calculations altogether. It would've been 8.0 strokes better than their new 8th best differential. (1.0 * 8 = 8.0)"




As for the implications about cheaters, people need to contact the club committee about them and the national authority if the club refuses to deal with the blatant cheating. The system caps everyone at 5 strokes over their lowest Handicap Index from the past 365 days, it also gives the tools to handicap committees to take action against people cheating within that cap. And I'd bet on the scratch golfer beating a high handicap any day of the week in practically any form of play. The results might only look skewed because there are a lot more of high handicappers playing and some of them will end up having good days.

If someone shoots 50 points in an event, that's 14 strokes below their Handicap Index resulting the player being cut by more than two strokes for the score alone plus an additional two strokes as an extra adjustment for the exceptional score. In the EGA system the 30+ HCP player would've been cut by 7 strokes, so yes, the WHS is a bit slower to react going down but someone shooting over 40 points will still come down pretty quickly, especially if the committee steps in and decides to lower the handicap even further.
 

PaulBoy

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#6
If someone shoots 50 points in an event, that's 14 strokes below their Handicap Index resulting the player being cut by more than two strokes for the score alone plus an additional two strokes as an extra adjustment for the exceptional score. In the EGA system the 30+ HCP player would've been cut by 7 strokes, so yes, the WHS is a bit slower to react going down but someone shooting over 40 points will still come down pretty quickly, especially if the committee steps in and decides to lower the handicap even further.
Surely what happens to a player who shoots 50 points differs greatly depending on the situation with their handicap? - Someone at my club shot that exact score recently with a handicap of 29 - As I understand it, he only had 5 recorded scores on his handicap record, so WHS adjusted his handicap from 29 to 18 - If he'd had 20 recorded scores on his handicap record there is no way his handicap would have come down so much with just one score?
My real beef with WHS is that in an effort to include everyone who wants to play golf, they have set the maximum handicap to more than double the old CONGU limit of 28 (for men) - There is no incentive to learn how to play, get instruction, practice etc when you can just head out on the course with a handicap of 48 & hack your way round? - Hard to believe that clubs around me would not let you join without being able to play to a certain standard (depending on what club you were trying to join?) - I applied to join a club in Surrey with a CONGU handicap of 5 and I was told I would have to play with a member of the committee to prove my playing ability & knowledge of course etiquette! - That same club now would allow anyone to join of any standard as long as they cough up their subscription fee
Maybe in several years WHS will work as planned, but I will be sticking to social golf for the foreseeable future ...
 

Halebopp

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#7
Surely what happens to a player who shoots 50 points differs greatly depending on the situation with their handicap? - Someone at my club shot that exact score recently with a handicap of 29 - As I understand it, he only had 5 recorded scores on his handicap record, so WHS adjusted his handicap from 29 to 18 - If he'd had 20 recorded scores on his handicap record there is no way his handicap would have come down so much with just one score?
My real beef with WHS is that in an effort to include everyone who wants to play golf, they have set the maximum handicap to more than double the old CONGU limit of 28 (for men) - There is no incentive to learn how to play, get instruction, practice etc when you can just head out on the course with a handicap of 48 & hack your way round? - Hard to believe that clubs around me would not let you join without being able to play to a certain standard (depending on what club you were trying to join?) - I applied to join a club in Surrey with a CONGU handicap of 5 and I was told I would have to play with a member of the committee to prove my playing ability & knowledge of course etiquette! - That same club now would allow anyone to join of any standard as long as they cough up their subscription fee
Maybe in several years WHS will work as planned, but I will be sticking to social golf for the foreseeable future ...
Yes, I was assuming an established handicap with the full 20 scores. Using the example of only 5 returned scores, the Handicap Index is based on the lowest differential, with 6 scores it's the average of the lowest two minus one stroke, so 50 points should decrease the Handicap Index by ten strokes (14/2 = 7 for the actual score + 1 stroke extra adjustment + 2 for the exceptional score).

I see your beef really isn't with the WHS.I don't know how it worked in the U.K. and we've had handicaps going up to 54 for ages. But if a club member was a maximum 28 and couldn't play to it, nothing about the the player's skill level actually changed even if he now has a handicap of 48. Of course, if a certain club requires its members to be able to play to a 28, that's on the club to enforce that rule. Just like it's up to the club to set a maximum handicap to play off for competitions. For us that's always been 36, so a 48 would always be essentially starting 12 strokes back in a competition.

As for not having an incentive to improve, I don't think that's true except for those who might play only a few rounds a year. I would assume most people have an inherent desire to get better at what they do and make the game of golf more enjoyable by getting better at it (we all know that's not exactly true but at least you'll lose fever balls as you improve :).

My assumption is the clubs letting anyone join now are simply struggling to find new members and therefore have been forced to change their recruiting policies and requirements. Most of mainland Europe has the golf license as a requirement to play on courses (and most clubs require handicaps of at least 36 from visiting players, especially during the busy hours) but certain clubs and pros have figured out the licenses are a good way to make easy money by providing one-day beginners' courses, or even online courses and practically giving away the licenses.

When I did my license, it was a two-week course with range sessions, lectures on rules and etiquette, walking on a course with a pro or a captain showing things and asking questions, practicing on your own etc. And now we're starting to see the results of those online licenses in players who are clueless about the most basic etiquette etc. The "golf is for everyone" idea has attracted a crowd for whom golf is an equal option to a night out. They rent a buggy and expect to advance on the course at the pace the buggy allows them to, they hack up the course, hit into the groups ahead etc. Luckily it isn't a big issue at our club yet as we're quite far away from the city but we've had an influx of new members, long-time golfers changing clubs after getting fed up with those issues.
 

PaulBoy

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#8
Lots of good points in your reply - I think we will agree to disagree about the incentive to improve, but your point about clubs struggling to find new members is certainly the case in my area - Clubs are really struggling financially (mostly due to the year plus disruption Covid caused) - Lots of clubs promised their members they "would not lose out financially" due to Covid, but the reality was that so much play was missed (over six months for members of my course) that the clubs could not afford to reimburse their members for the time they were unable to play - Six months worth of my subscriptions worked out (for me) to around £750 (for my membership at one club & country membership at another) not a small amount (for a pensioner!) - I have only heard of one club in my area that refunded the full amount to their members for golf missed due to Covid
Your other point is very interesting - Golf License - I have never heard of that system, and unless I am wildly out of touch, I am not sure it exists in this country? - Happy to be corrected, but based on some of the clueless behavior on the golf course I have seen recently, I don't think it is a requirement here? - I would certainly be all for it though, based on your appraisal
Cheers ... Paul
 
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Steve Smith

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#9
When I started in my first club at 12 in 1978 the max for any male golfer was 20

Yes 20..

If you can't play to less than mid 90s on an average course and you are a reasonably fit male aged 80 or less.... THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE ON A BLOODY GOLF COURSE... GET YOURSELF A NICE SET OF BOWLS AND SOD OFF!!
 
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Halebopp

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#10
When I started in my first club at 12 in 1978 the max for any male golfer was 20

Yes 20..

If you can't play to less than mid 90s on an average course and you are a reasonably fit male aged 80 or less.... THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE ON A BLOODY GOLF COURSE... GET YOURSELF A NICE SET OF BOWLS AND SOD OFF!!
How many 20-hcp men did your club have at the time? :)
 

Steve Smith

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#11
How many 20-hcp men did your club have at the time? :)
Not sure, it was a long time ago... but there were very few bandits...

As an example... the course record was broken by a young lad of plus 2 last year in one of the bigger trophies. 64 nett 66
..

He got beaten on the back nine by a 32 handicapper who just managed to break 100...

Just saying..
 

LOS

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#12
Not sure, it was a long time ago... but there were very few bandits...

As an example... the course record was broken by a young lad of plus 2 last year in one of the bigger trophies. 64 nett 66
..

He got beaten on the back nine by a 32 handicapper who just managed to break 100...

Just saying..

If members of your club where upset with the result they should air their complaints to the competition commitee.

1622638889396.png
 

WalkerCup

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#13
I think gone are the days of a new to golf member of a club fed up with not being able to break 100 or 90 and booking a series of lessons, maybe regrouping the half set of John Letters clubs his Grandad passed to him and practicing his putting on the carpet at home. They don't hit their 3 iron as its too difficult and a solid drive with a B51 XTC golf ball goes 185 yards......

Nowadays, new to the game golfers want to hit the ball 300 yards carry a variety of hybrids and woods, specialist wedges, seem to have super electric trolleys, Scotty Cameron putters, custom fit set of irons, a few pairs of footjoy shoes, go on a mates home simulator, get golf tips from YouTube , don't go for lessons. Learn golfing terminology from Sky Sports 405 and simply just use their 32 handicap to win prizes........

Is there more merit in a guy off plus 2 scoring a course record 64 for 66 net or a guy off 32 coming in with a 65 net taking the competition?!!! YEs I believe in golf for all, but more importantly you should have to work , practice and learn to be good enough to challenge for prizes. The new higher handicaps have ruined golf for some.
 
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Steve Smith

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#15
I think gone are the days of a new to golf member of a club fed up with not being able to break 100 or 90 and booking a series of lessons, maybe regrouping the half set of John Letters clubs his Grandad passed to him and practicing his putting on the carpet at home. They don't hit their 3 iron as its too difficult and a solid drive with a B51 XTC golf ball goes 185 yards......

Nowadays, new to the game golfers want to hit the ball 300 yards carry a variety of hybrids and woods, specialist wedges, seem to have super electric trolleys, Scotty Cameron putters, custom fit set of irons, a few pairs of footjoy shoes, go on a mates home simulator, get golf tips from YouTube , don't go for lessons. Learn golfing terminology from Sky Sports 405 and simply just use their 32 handicap to win prizes........

Is there more merit in a guy off plus 2 scoring a course record 64 for 66 net or a guy off 32 coming in with a 65 net taking the competition?!!! YEs I believe in golf for all, but more importantly you should have to work , practice and learn to be good enough to challenge for prizes. The new higher handicaps have ruined golf for some.
Actually ... Brandon took it all really well... I think he was gutted to lose out but just really happy to get the 30 year old record.

Problem is that apart from the club chaps all of the trophy comps are nett and the best gross doesn't even get a medal these days whereas in the past there would be a gross trophy that ran alongside the main prize in all of the major club comps...

Please don't get me wrong... I am all for inclusiveness and encouragement and some of my more controversial views are slightly tongue in cheek to the point of an annoying those with more progressive viewpoints...

I do believe passionately in encouraging juniors to take up the game as when I was a kid (55 year old now) we did not get the lickings of a dog...

But I will stand by my opinion that golf is a game that calls for standards in etiquette and common courtesy....

I do think that improvements have been made... eg scrap the archaic "honour" to speed up play and allo
 

Steve Smith

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#16
Actually ... Brandon took it all really well... I think he was gutted to lose out but just really happy to get the 30 year old record.

Problem is that apart from the club chaps all of the trophy comps are nett and the best gross doesn't even get a medal these days whereas in the past there would be a gross trophy that ran alongside the main prize in all of the major club comps...

Please don't get me wrong... I am all for inclusiveness and encouragement and some of my more controversial views are slightly tongue in cheek to the point of an annoying those with more progressive viewpoints...

I do believe passionately in encouraging juniors to take up the game as when I was a kid (55 year old now) we did not get the lickings of a dog...

But I will stand by my opinion that golf is a game that calls for standards in etiquette and common courtesy....

I do think that improvements have been made... eg scrap the archaic "honour" to speed up play and allo
Allow players to play second shots first if their partner behind is faffing about and agrees to it... continous putting rule etc...

But fat slobs in cargo shirts and scruffy T-shirts like they are on a jolly in Florida and the constant use of mobile phones when people are playing a shot do nothing for the game IMVHO

End of comment...😔😔😔😔
 

Steve Smith

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#17
I think gone are the days of a new to golf member of a club fed up with not being able to break 100 or 90 and booking a series of lessons, maybe regrouping the half set of John Letters clubs his Grandad passed to him and practicing his putting on the carpet at home. They don't hit their 3 iron as its too difficult and a solid drive with a B51 XTC golf ball goes 185 yards......

Nowadays, new to the game golfers want to hit the ball 300 yards carry a variety of hybrids and woods, specialist wedges, seem to have super electric trolleys, Scotty Cameron putters, custom fit set of irons, a few pairs of footjoy shoes, go on a mates home simulator, get golf tips from YouTube , don't go for lessons. Learn golfing terminology from Sky Sports 405 and simply just use their 32 handicap to win prizes........

Is there more merit in a guy off plus 2 scoring a course record 64 for 66 net or a guy off 32 coming in with a 65 net taking the competition?!!! YEs I believe in golf for all, but more importantly you should have to work , practice and learn to be good enough to challenge for prizes. The new higher handicaps have ruined golf for some.
Thanks Walker...

I apologise if my comments offended anyone... I was having a bad day unfortunately...

I am old enough and ugly and reasonable enough to accept any criticism on the chin and take note in future...

I think etiquette and common courtesy for others has gone down the pan in the last 30 years or so... not only in golf but in all walks of life... celebrity culture... spitting on greens... get in the hole!!!... your the man!!...

Urgh... horrible...the US way... I refuse to use the term "America"... it is a continent of many countries from the Arctic to Tierra Del Fuego

Perhaps I am just old beyond my years and a man out of time...

If I hold a door for a woman then I am a misogynist... yet I would hold a door for a man also...

Bah humbug... 🤨🤨
 
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Halebopp

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#18
Not sure, it was a long time ago... but there were very few bandits...

As an example... the course record was broken by a young lad of plus 2 last year in one of the bigger trophies. 64 nett 66
..

He got beaten on the back nine by a 32 handicapper who just managed to break 100...

Just saying..
You might want to talk to the club committee about setting up flights for your competitions. All the weekly competitions around here are flighted along the lines of +...10 play net stroke play, 10-18 play Stableford and 18-36 play their own Stableford. (everyone over 36 is considered a 36) plus a prize for low gross. Depending on the competition the flights might also be gross, net and Stableford.
 
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Steve Smith

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#19
You might want to talk to the club committee about setting up flights for your competitions. All the weekly competitions around here are flighted along the lines of +...10 play net stroke play, 10-18 play Stableford and 18-36 play their own Stableford. (everyone over 36 is considered a 36) plus a prize for low gross. Depending on the competition the flights might also be gross, net and Stableford.
I doubt they will listen to the likes of me but good idea Hale 👍👍👍
 

Steve Smith

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#20
Please don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting everyone should play to a handicap limit and I am not as arrogant as you may think.. my comments were ever so slightly tongue in cheek... but...

I do think that there should be more "drawn" competitions..

Too many times there are groups that play in their own little clique in medals...

Are they following the rules?
Or are they just playing "mates" golf... oh that's a gimme... your ball was about there in the rough so just drop one and say no more... bad shot just take a Mulligan... etc etc...

I am not saying that these people are deliberately cheating but when you only play with the same couple of guys week after week then the rules can become a bit blurred...

So... the answer... have drawn competitions (not all of the time) but once in every 3 or 4 say?... it will help to introduce more members to each other, especially new members who may find it difficult to meet people and get established, break down the cliques and improve adherence and accountability to the rules..

If I am drawn with a high handicapper then I would always try to be as friendly as possible, put them at ease, not be competitive and just say it is a nice walk and not to worry at all and help and encourage them....

However if I am drawn with a scratch player who is up themselves then I simply go into Lee Trevino mode.... I put myself down... apologise for being rubbish... I compliment their bad shot and say nothing when they hit a good shot... I make silly chit chat when they are "in the zone"... to the point where I really really irritate and get on their nerves and wind them up ever so subtlety... love to see them getting wound up...

But the clubs don't like it because competition entry is generally 40% less in the drawn competitions leading to loss of revenue and reduced bar takings... and those in the cliques don't like to play with anyone else...

I find the whole situation very sad...
 
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