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Loft creep anyone??

Tue May 16, 2017 2:01 am

Posted by Steve Smith


Mizuno in fairness to them has tried to resist the trend

But now you have a wedge with a 9 iron loft and a 9 iron length shaft.

Isnt it amazing how the irons go a full club further than 30 years ago? modern technology eh?

The pro's were playing with 50 or 51 degree pitching wedges and 55 or 56 degree sand wedges in those days so the gap wedge did not exist.

You have 44 degree pitching wedges now, and the 50 degree "gap wedge" is just what a pitching wedge used to be.

It panders to the stupidity and macho attitude of most club golfers these days.

I have an idea, stop numbering the irons and just stamp the loft and length of the club on the head?

Steve
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Tue May 16, 2017 4:07 am

Posted by Terry


You are correct of course although the Mizuno forged clubs have not changed that much since 1990 ,see timeline list on euro site. The Faldo clubs of 1992.were almost the same as your clubs or mine and the new mp range is only one degree diff.
Even the mizzy Gi clubs are not much different HOWEVER the super Gi clubs with other brands are crazy .
Most wedge suppliers have the degree and bounce so one can get a 50,52,54,56,60 etc. What I go cross eyed on is the different names . Eg. in wedges there is pw,gap,aw (what's that?) sw ,lob,equaliser,10,11.Shafts have also become complicated with the designations and  have got stiffer over the years. I saw somewhere that true temper advised that for example dg gold stiff of twenty years ago is more like a reg. today. 
Bottom line is I suppose you cannot compare old with the new you must get fitted.
edit:
There would be enough material on this site to fill four novels about this .
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 9:20 am
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Irons: Lefty MP 60 ,5/pw,NS pro,950 gh reg , titleist 910 15,g30 18, g30 22,Tseries wedge. ,Ping Scottsdale
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Tue May 16, 2017 10:33 am

Posted by hursty


Terry wrote:

You are correct of course although the Mizuno forged clubs have not changed that much since 1990 ,see timeline list on euro site. The Faldo clubs of 1992.were almost the same as your clubs or mine and the new mp range is only one degree diff.
Even the mizzy Gi clubs are not much different HOWEVER the super Gi clubs with other brands are crazy .
Most wedge suppliers have the degree and bounce so one can get a 50,52,54,56,60 etc. What I go cross eyed on is the different names . Eg. in wedges there is pw,gap,aw (what's that?) sw ,lob,equaliser,10,11.Shafts have also become complicated with the designations and  have got stiffer over the years. I saw somewhere that true temper advised that for example dg gold stiff of twenty years ago is more like a reg. today. 
Bottom line is I suppose you cannot compare old with the new you must get fitted.
edit:
There would be enough material on this site to fill four novels about this .


Got to disagree slightly there Terry, look at the lofts for the 900 Forged and Hot Metals, a 21 deg 4i = traditional 3i loft.

Regarding the stamping of lofts in the OP, what happens when you want lofts strengthened or weakened? no company I know will hand stamp the mass produced irons to cater for individual needs.
Mizuno JPX 900 - Speeder 757 S
Mizuno JPX 900 3W - Speeder 661 X
Mizuno JPX 900 19 hy - Fujikura Pro 75S
Mizuno MP18 MMC Fli Hi #3 - PX 6.0
Mizuno MP-5 4i-PW - PX 6.0
Mizuno MPT-7 50 / 58 - PX 6.0
Odyssey #7 CS
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Tue May 16, 2017 11:34 am

Posted by Terry


Oops, your right there hursty. I had not realised that the jpx 900 were one club stronger in the long irons and in reality the pw  is half way between my pw and 9.
Intetesting I noted that the 4i ez is 22 against 21 for 900 f and hm.
I guess I used a bad comparison with the Faldo clubs . If I used the tp 11 instead there is quite a change.
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 9:20 am
Posts: 414
HCP: 13.2
Local club/country: Queensland
Irons: Lefty MP 60 ,5/pw,NS pro,950 gh reg , titleist 910 15,g30 18, g30 22,Tseries wedge. ,Ping Scottsdale
Driver: Jpx ez ,S xlr8,10.5 fade

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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Wed May 17, 2017 12:28 am

Posted by DGMP


Since golf was invented, equipment has evolved. Hope this helps.
JPX EZ driver Graphite Design Tour AD 6 shaft
EZ 3 and 5 fairway metals GD Tour AD DJ 7 shaft
MP 63 model 3-PW irons with DG S300 shafts
MP T-5 52* and 58* lofts with DG shafts
Byron Morgan DH89 putter
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Wed May 17, 2017 6:55 am

Posted by Kgrove


I'm not saying there isn't a marketing game going on with many or all of the game improvement irons, but I think there is a technology component, and I think you see it in two ways:

One, technology is making clubs easier to hit. If all manufacturers did was strengthen lofts, they would have difficulty selling clubs because buyers would recognize that while they can hit their scoring irons further, they're having increasing difficulty hitting their long irons (e.g., while its great I can hit my 9-iron further than I used to, my 5-iron is now as difficult to hit as my old set's 3-iron... these clubs suck!).

Two, ball, shaft and head changes are producing higher ball speeds and higher launch angles per the same loft head than equipment 30 years ago. Remember a golf shot is not just distance, but also trajectory and spin. If the ball comes off hotter and higher than 30 years ago and they didn't compensate by lowering the loft, players would be wondering why their 7 iron now feels like an 8-iron... and the answer would be because its launching just like an 8-iron. I suggest manufacturers have lowered lofts so 7-irons still play like a 7-iron, just longer.

If you look at players clubs, I think you get a pretty clear look at just the pure technology changes. MP4 or MP5 buyers, for instance, tend to not care at all about distance (almost by definition, if distance was a major issue for them they wouldn't buy those irons). You see about 3* strengthened loft per club vs 30 years ago, but 8-irons still fly like 8-irons... just a little longer. 
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Fri May 19, 2017 12:36 pm

Posted by Hyperactive


Back in the day, before loft creep was considered technology by club manufacturers, there were 4 degree loft gaps between irons throughout the set. A standard SW was, and always will be 56 degrees. There was no yardage gap between the SW and PW, and the PW was 52 degrees. Then the 9 iron was 48, the 8 iron at 44, and on an on until you got to the 3 iron at 24 degrees.

Better players iron lofts have crept up less than game improvement irons. Todays MP irons have the 4 iron at 24 degrees, with Mizuno game improvement irons it's the 5 iron. But with Taylormade GI irons 24 degrees is a 6 iron. But lofts at the moment have reach some sort of ceiling, as you can't crank them up anymore without creating big yardage gaps in the shorter irons.That is until some bright spark at TM invents the numbered gap wedge, then it wont be long before 24 degrees is a 7 iron.

Now 24 degrees is another ceiling in golf. Some of you will have heard of the 38-24 rule in golf clubs. The club manufacturers have known about it for decades. this is the rule where by an iron measuring 38 inches long, and with a loft of 24 degrees, is the longest iron the average golfer can reasonably expect to hit well. Longer than that, and they just don't create enough club head speed to launch the ball properly, or square the club face at impact. It doesn't matter what number is stamped on the bottom of an iron, the 38-24 rule still applies, and it always will.
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:20 pm

Posted by Steve Smith


Thanks for the posts guys, it makes interesting reading.

I agree with most of the comments.

The ball technology is changing so the balls spin less.

The iron technology is also changing to accommodate that, the irons launch the ball at a higher angle and hang in the air with a more penetrating flight, allegedly.

I am not so sure though.

I picked up a set of MP37's for £100 (3 to PW) and I was hitting them a mile (standard lofts, standard length, I am short at 5 foot 9). Everything was wonderful down from the wedge to the 5 iron.

Then all of a sudden I could not hit a barn door with the 4 or the 3.

Dont know what the * happened. When I was 16 my favourite iron of my 1982 Titleist Tour model was my 2 iron, I could nail it. Maybe I have just got old I dont know, or just got lazy and forgot how to put a good swing on the long irons.

I play off 13.4 now but I still feel that I strike the ball as well and as far as when I was playing off 4 about 15 years ago (maybe I am deluding myself). I play at a much longer and harder course now than then and the greens are a lot more difficult and I do not play as much so my short game and putting is quite rusty.

I have a 17 degree 2, a 20 degree 3 and a 23 degree 4 CLK Fli hi hybrid. They are lovely and so easy to hit even though they are from 2007 and "old technology" now. I do not feel less of a man for having 3 hybrids in the bag instead of the 2,3 and 4 iron

Do I just get old or do I get lazy with the new tech????? 

Very happy to hear anyone's opinion?? Please not (too much) insulting comments :-)

Steve
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:52 am
Posts: 26
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England
HCP: 14
Local club/country: Whitley Bay,Tyne and Wear, England
Irons: Mizuno MP32 2-PW, Mizuno MP14 2-SW, MP37 3-W
Driver: Mizuno JPX825 - 9 degree Orochi Red - Stiff, Mizuno MP600 - 9 degree Grafalloy Prolaunch, Mizuno Pro 300S Fujikura Vista Pro 70 stiff

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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:35 pm

Posted by Kgrove


There are multiple sides to the loft creep argument. There's no doubt there is a marketing angle to it - "these clubs are longer" when in fact they just strengthened the loft. On the other hand, moving the center of gravity and perimeter weighting in newer club designs helps launch the ball higher, so some of the strengthened loft may be to keep the ball flight consistent with what golfers expect from that club. If they added all that stuff and launched higher, we might be sitting here whining about how newer clubs now balloon the ball and our 9-irons are really gap wedges 30 years ago.

Keep in mind the number on the bottom of the club was never defined to be anything specific. In that context, 7-iron could mean 34*, whatever club goes approximately X yards on a full swing, the iron that has a launch angle of about X degrees, or just the 7th most difficult iron to hit (assuming that 1-irons actually existed any longer). In reality the number on the bottom of the club is just a name. Frankly even if lofts were stamped on the bottom, not all 34* clubs hit with the same launch angle, so even loft doesn't fully define a club. One 34* iron might play more like another 36* iron.

In the end, it doesn't matter. When your standing 150 yards from the pin with hazards in front and behind the green, you won't care whether the bottom of your club says 6, 7, 34 degrees, niblick, or even if it's blank. You're going to grab the club you think carries the right distance and with enough spin to stop the ball. Worrying too much about loft and club numbering is missing the point about golf... which is to take all the money you can from the rest of your foursome while simultaneously hiding out from your wife. Or maybe that's just me.
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Re: Loft creep anyone??

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:16 pm

Posted by HAIRY ESSEX BLOKE


I got my hands on a TP9 7iron, put a new grip on it, pretended to be Sir Nick, it is just a very few yards shorter than my MP53's. but flies quite higher, feels as all Mizuno clubs do, wonderful. I would love to know what shaft is in it but hey-ho it is quite wonderful in action, I now want a set......   
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