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Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:22 pm

Posted by DMT


The following occurred to me today thinking about one of the posts by Brattz (and not the one moaning about not having scored 50 points!).

I'm pretty sure there was mention of a pairs match where the opponent's ball went in off his partners marker.  I think this is a penalty.  If the marker had been Brattz' or Brattz's playing partner then no penalty.  But I think a marker counts as equipment and then if a ball in motion is deflected by your equipment (which includes playing partners and caddies) there is a penalty.

I was playing a medal today and asked one of the guys if he wanted my marker moving. He joked that it might send it back on line and it got me thinking about Brattz' post.

I think the rule is 19-2. Not sure personally I'd feel comfortable calling a penalty on someone for this but I guess the rules aren't discretionary. 
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:38 pm

Posted by Kevmc


no penalty as far as I'm aware, it was only marking the position of the ball so isn't equipment.
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:35 pm

Posted by RobB2


No penalty as far as i am aware either
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:22 am

Posted by DMT


Looked again and my mistake.

I missed a fairly fundamental word of "except" under the link which defined "equipment". Saw reference to a marker but didn't read it properly.  I'll blame the red wine.

How do I delete this post?! Thanks. 
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 am

Posted by Brattz


Spot on DMT. I looked on my rules app when it happened and saw the exception for small objects. My anger is that poker chip ball markers can't surely be classed as a small object. In my opinion  they should be banned in competitive golf.
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Posted by LOS


It is probably debateable but would probably depend on whether " The marker moved" when struck by the ball or not.
Since the teammates ball had been marked the movement of the marker by the ball was not attributable to the marking of the teammates ball.
RULE  20-1 
If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally [url]moved [/url] in the process of lifting the ball under a [url]Rule[/url] or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced.
There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is
directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or
lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or [url]Rule 18-2[/url].

I think Poulter was once penalized for dropping his ball on his marker and moving it after he had already marked his ball.


Agree with Brattz about Poker Chip markers.
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:38 pm

Posted by DMT


I remember the Poulter incident.  There is, I think, a difference in the rules between when initially marking the ball and returning to your marker and making it move.

Anyway, in this example (as outlined in one of Brattz' posts) it was specifically 19-2 I was thinking about and a ball in motion deflected by a player, partner, caddie or equipment.  I only remember this one because in our 4BBB winter league a couple of years ago my partner thinned one out of a bunker, flew the green, hit an opponents trolley and stopped nicely on the fringe.  No penalty for us, if he'd hit my trolley there would have been a penalty, and we had the option of play it as it lies. 

If the marker had been deemed 'equipment' then I think there would have been a breach.

Anyway, I didn't read the small print well enough and, if you consider a poker chip to be akin to a small coin or a tee peg, then it doesn't classify as equipment.  I guess 'small' is subjective (insert your own gags to please). 
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:40 pm

Posted by Celtic_Bil


If the ball marker accidentally moves whilst marking or replacing the ball then there is no penalty.

Poulter had marked his ball and was crouched down messing about with it (spinning it in his fingers or something).  The ball dropped onto the marker and moved it.  This is why he incurred the penalty.  Though he looked like he was trying to think how he could have disguised it as replacing the ball :).
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:19 pm

Posted by seanmor


In one of the documentaries about the life and times of Seve Ballesteros there is a
story told by Mark O'Meara about an incident between him and Seve
during the 1989 Ryder Cup afternoon four-ball matches,

Mark O'Meara was lining up a put on the green and asked Ballesteros who's ball was nearer the
hole if he could mark it as it was in his line of sight, Ballesteros
duly marked his ball but Mark O'Meara then asked him if he would move
his ball marker more to the right as it was still within the line of
his put Ballesteros again moved his ball marker more to the right,
Mark O'Meara proceeded to line up his put and stroked his ball on a
right to left arc towards the hole and as it passed the marker of
Ballesteros it glanced off of it and went in the hole...!

Ballesteros accused O'Meara of deliberately asking him to place his
ball marker in that position in order to use it as an aide in holing
his put,

Mark O'Meara incurred no penalty for hitting the ball marker of Ballesteros and the put
was good,

As far as I'm aware there is no penalty for hitting a ball marker on the green,
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Re: Rule 19-2? One for Brattz?

Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:45 am

Posted by Brattz


seanmor wrote:

In one of the documentaries about the life and times of Seve Ballesteros there is a
story told by Mark O'Meara about an incident between him and Seve
during the 1989 Ryder Cup afternoon four-ball matches,

Mark O'Meara was lining up a put on the green and asked Ballesteros who's ball was nearer the
hole if he could mark it as it was in his line of sight, Ballesteros
duly marked his ball but Mark O'Meara then asked him if he would move
his ball marker more to the right as it was still within the line of
his put Ballesteros again moved his ball marker more to the right,
Mark O'Meara proceeded to line up his put and stroked his ball on a
right to left arc towards the hole and as it passed the marker of
Ballesteros it glanced off of it and went in the hole...!

Ballesteros accused O'Meara of deliberately asking him to place his
ball marker in that position in order to use it as an aide in holing
his put,

Mark O'Meara incurred no penalty for hitting the ball marker of Ballesteros and the put
was good,

As far as I'm aware there is no penalty for hitting a ball marker on the green,


I've said already there is no penalty for hitting a marker as it is classed as an exception as a small object. My objection is should Poker Chip ball markers be classed as a small object when they are clearly MASSIVE. I have took my objection to our club committee and asked if a local rule in competition could be enforced where they are banned from competitive golf at our club.

I have got more support for this than i imagined.....
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