Is Custom Fit really beneficial to amateurs?

[derh50]

I have been playing golf with a handicap between 4 and 9 for past 45 years. It is currently 7. My swing hasn't really changed over the years - just less flexible! 

Eighteen months ago I went to a premium club fitter with the intention of changing my irons (MP54s). At the end of the session, they recommended keeping the club heads and changing the shafts from KBS Tour S to KBS C Taper Lite S. They also recommended lengthening the shafts by 1/2 inch and changing the grips to golf pride plus 4. They also recommended that I DECREASE the lie angle by 1 degree. 

Recently I went to a Mizuno fitting with the intention of purchasing JPX 900 Forged - just for a change. Lovely club but the recommendation I received was my new order should the lengthen the shaft by 1/4 inch and to INCREASE the lie angle by 2 degree. 

That's a difference of 3 degrees which is huge. 

I am a reasonable ball striker yet the recommended variation in lie angle is significant. I do not argue that the recommendations were wrong - simply that as amateurs we have good, average and bad swings days which probably makes an accurate custom fitting impossible and perhaps, superfluous. (assuming some common sense is being applied to a purchase off the rack..) A better approach is to invest in more lessons and practice and then re evaluate. 

This experience has prompted me to "sit on my wallet" for the time being; I will probably end up ordering a set of new irons averaging out the recommendations.... 

PS: The last time (about 4 years ago) that I was fitted using the DNA - I was recommended MP64 with Project X shafts - at the fitting they were great - unfortunately they lasted 6 months as I was unable to use them. The good swing day at the fitting turned into many bad swing days on the course....  

 

[LOS]

That's a difference of 3 degrees which is huge. 

You never mentioned what your original Lie Spec was. If it was originally 3* upright then a 1* decease would take it to +2.
A new fitting would start at standard lie and a 2* increase would take that to +2.

 

[derh50]

Original recommendation was standard less 1 degree.
Latest recommendation is standard plus 2 degree....

 

[Brattz]

I defied any recommendation for lie alterations and asked for standard because I know my swing changes from day to day and that's why I'm not a pro. Also, we all tweak our swings in search of perfection and performance so why do it with a set of clubs designed for 'one' swing?

 

[Varry Hardon]

You could say the custom fitting is a good starting point (though not in your case).

However, based on the fact you only hit a 6 iron, it is massively overrated.

It is about 1% of the fitting process a pro will go through, which for obviously reasons is not practical at all for club players (takes too long).

Absolutely no substitute for knowing what shafts you prefer to hit.

 

[Kgrove]

Varry Hardon писал(а):You could say the custom fitting is a good starting point (though not in your case).

However, based on the fact you only hit a 6 iron, it is massively overrated.




I have a fundamental disagreement here. Most if not all iron fittings are driven mostly around a 6-iron. That's a normal iron fitting. 

First, a fitter can get everything they need to find you the right shaft, lie angle, etc from just one club. Second, think of the logistics if they had to test all clubs. The KBS Tour shaft just as an example comes in 5 different flexes. Fitters would need 35 different shafts if golfers wanted or needed to test all irons in a set, and that's if fitters only carried standard length and 4-PW sets.

There is a value in hitting other club lengths so you can see how a club model changes from long iron to PW, but my experience has been that this tends to be a smaller part of the fitting and is usually done with relatively generic stock shafts.

 

[hursty]

Varry Hardon писал(а):You could say the custom fitting is a good starting point (though not in your case).

However, based on the fact you only hit a 6 iron, it is massively overrated.




I have a fundamental disagreement here. Most if not all iron fittings are driven mostly around a 6-iron. That's a normal iron fitting. 

First, a fitter can get everything they need to find you the right shaft, lie angle, etc from just one club. Second, think of the logistics if they had to test all clubs. The KBS Tour shaft just as an example comes in 5 different flexes. Fitters would need 35 different shafts if golfers wanted or needed to test all irons in a set, and that's if fitters only carried standard length and 4-PW sets.

There is a value in hitting other club lengths so you can see how a club model changes from long iron to PW, but my experience has been that this tends to be a smaller part of the fitting and is usually done with relatively generic stock shafts.

Disagree with that.

Fitting me at 2 degree up based on a 6i iron does not mean that my 3i or Wedge also needs to be 2 degree up.

I've been fitted 3 times by different places over the past 5 years or so and always taken their recommendations based on a 6i (2 deg up, 2 deg flat, 1 deg flat), after receiving my clubs I've carried out lie angle tests myself at our local range with tape and a strike board on ALL of the irons, guess what, every club was slightly different on the lie angles.

The issue is how thorough a fitting you want, with that will come extra cost.

An independent fitter/builder will probably cost more but i guarantee that the extra cost will include either a full set check or if they don't carry the full test irons the ability to take the new set back in once built to then have each iron lie angle adjusted for free.

Ultimately though, is custom fitting worth it? My personal view is its more of a nice thing to have done rather than an essential thing to have done, how consistent / repetitive are we with the swing as amateurs to actually reap the full benefits???? (i know I'm not  )

 

[Kgrove]

I bet if you measure 2* upright on a 6i, your 3i and PW is closer to 2* upright than they are to standard lie? I'd think the lie angle measured from a 6i wouldn't move much as you go a few clubs either directionl. It's possible some of the needed adjustments you saw were also correcting for deviations in the club build if they missed the intended lie angle by 1/2* or so.

I don't think we're far apart in what we're saying. My main point was addressing the post before mine that said 6i based fittings were "massively overrated". I'd agree if it said they aren't perfect, but not massively overrated.  

The more comprehensive fitting you're describing is also consistent with a 6i based fitting - use the 6i to get the full set in the ballpark of correct, then fine tune each club after they arrive. That's level of thoroughness in a fitting is probably the difference between superstore fittings that are often included with purchase or are a small fee vs independent fitters who charge more. 

Fittings can be beneficial to amateurs. They aren't always very noticable as some people don't need much adjustment on either the club specs or club choices. Other people might see measurable improvements in consistency and distance either because they would have chosen clubs poorly suited to their game or they need different specs in lie angle, shaft length, etc to best deliver the club to the ball. All that said, if you have a horrible swing, well fit clubs will just make you a tiny bit more consistent but still horrible golfer, and I'm pretty sure Jason Day could out play me using his grandmother's clubs.

 

[hursty]

and I'm pretty sure Jason Day could out play me using his grandmother's clubs.

The way I'm playing I'm pretty sure Jason Days grandmother could out play me using his clubs!!!

 

[Varry Hardon]

I don't think we're far apart in what we're saying. My main point was addressing the post before mine that said 6i based fittings were "massively overrated". I'd agree if it said they aren't perfect, but not massively overrated. 

Some club manufacturers - not sure from memory if Mizuno have ever done this - have referred to the single club fitting as "tour level" fitting.

Which it absolutely is not.

Ergo..

 

[superhoop]

Interesting thread, several aspects to it.

Should also be remembered that the big promotional push for all golfers (even very poor standard amateurs) to be custom-fitted came when internet retailing of golf equipment was starting to take off. The traditional golf retailers were scared they would lose all their sales to cheaper on-line competitors, especially if they were all selling the same product ie standard spec sets of clubs, as happened with books, CDs, etc..

Therefore the brands looked for ways to help the traditional retailers make their offering unique, and one way was for those retailers to offer a custom-fitting service, the theory being that you cannot do a proper fitting on-line, so the traditional retailers would be able to use (and charge for) their skills & expertise and would have this sector of the market to themselves.  So the brands heavily promoted custom fitting, especially via traditional non-internet retailers, as a way of protecting this important sector of their business.

This was fine until the brands started developing their really-easy-to-use idiot-proof fitting systems, suddenly anyone in a golf shop could do fittings, there was no special skill involved (except reading numbers on a chart), and the price competition started all over again as some retailers stopped charging for fittings.

The brands have invested so much in custom fitting that they're not now suddenly going to say it doesn't really make much difference to the recreational golfer. But so what ?....if golf is your favourite hobby, and having someone assess your swing and give recommendations for equipment purchases makes you feel good and makes you think you will play better then, hey why not ?! It's your money, spend it how you like. 

Average handicaps have not fallen in many years, suggesting that all the custom-fitting, new materials, new technologies, etc have had no impact on recreational amateurs' performance. Perhaps their best performance (scorecard) gains would be achieved by more putting practice and a few short-game lessons from the pro ?

 

[LOS]

Interesting thread, several aspects to it.


Average handicaps have not fallen in many years, suggesting that all the custom-fitting, new materials, new technologies, etc have had no impact on recreational amateurs' performance. Perhaps their best performance (scorecard) gains would be achieved by more putting practice and a few short-game lessons from the pro ?

While the average handicaps may not have fallen the average age of golfers playing at least once a week has gone up in the UK. You could say that if these older golfers are able to maintain their handicaps then something must be working for them.

From 2014
"A report in the Financial Times, referencing work conducted by Sports Marketing Surveys (SMS INC), states that ‘in the UK, the average age of golfers is up from 41 in 2009 to 45, while that of ‘avid golfers’, those who play at least once a week, is up from 48 to 63, according to SMS INC."
http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2014/1 ... ince-2009/

 

[superhoop]

"You could say that if these older golfers are able to maintain their handicaps then something must be working for them."

Correct - I would suggest that is mainly down to healthier diet, more access to fitness facilities, better treatment for medical conditions and injuries ? 

Very illuminating participation stats you quote, thanks for them - it is truly shocking that golf is now a sport played avidly by people, on average, of 63 years old. That is a biting indictment of the powers in charge and how relatively unattractive they have made golf (compared with alternative interests) to younger generations.

 

[Varry Hardon]

50 now is like 60 then.

Agreed about the average age - at my club it is going up and up.

Not enough new younger members joining.

Golf is going back to where it was when I first started dabbling 25 years ago. Elitist - or certain perceived as.

 

[chrism_s]

Just a couple of thoughts on this...

The mechanics of how a body swings remain remarkably consistent at a macro level for the individual across the handicap range. Whilst the micro detail can result in a bad or good shot (face strike, impact on ground etc) the rhythm, length and forces in the swing are remarkably consistent. You can tell this from taking a video of swing after swing, its very hard from a distance to see any differences in rhythm etc but the outcome can vary massively.

What that points to is the concept that being fitted to match the macro elements of a swing makes a lot of sense. As a 6ft 5 man I have a swing that needs a different set of components to a 5 ft woman, and I think we can all agree on that. Swinging a 6 iron can profile that without needing to be done across the whole club range.

This explains why a tool such as Mizuno's can identify the correct macro components of an individual swing and recommend a shaft and head combo to fit. Loft & lie being tuned then based on personal preference and details makes some sense, as it is hard for a computer to extrapolate these changes based off one iron's input.

 

[Kgrove]

The results from my iron fitting could be used to explain either side of the "get a fitting / fittings are overrated" argument.

In favor of fittings, I can show with a launch monitor that my fitted MP5s carry about 8-10 yards further and with more consistency than the stock MP57s they replaced. MP5s should not inherently be longer or more forgiving than MP57s, so that improvement must have been driven by shaft selection (which wasn't much different) and lie angle adjustments. So if that's the only point of reference, there probably are many amateurs who could see benefits from fitted clubs. I'm also sure there are many who will see little benefit because stock clubs are close to their ideal specs.

In favor of fittings being overrated, I could show my scores and handicap index from several months on either side of my fitting and it's very difficult to notice a difference. At best I could argue the improved ball striking took a couple tenths off my HC. My GIR percentage improved, but all I did is trade chips for longer putts so my scoring was essentially the same. So if that were the only point of reference, many amateurs will not be better players after a fitting and will still score the same (roughly).

Still... we're not talking about exclusive events. Golfers can get clubs that make smallish improvements in their game AND simultaneously work on their swing mechanics and short game. If the message is that fittings won't transform anyone into a noticeably better golfer, I'm in full agreement. Although many of us try, you can't just buy a better golf game. If the message is that fittings don't make any difference, I'm proof that's misleading.

 

[DennisMiller]

There's a local Miami club fitter who makes high quality custom clubs, but if you just want a fitting, he'll do it, at a price.

I've never been to him, but friends who have tell stories about being fitted for every club from driver to putter. An Assistant Pro I used to work with had results that suggested his long irons should be about 1 degree flat, through his PW being 2 degrees upright. He explained that it came down to how he settled into a comfortable posture with whatever length club he had in his hands. I wonder if I would repeat my posture as consistently?

Honestly, the only fitting I've ever had used the 6 iron method and the specs suggested 2 degrees upright through the set. Based on nothing more than common sense, I feel like every club should be fitted. I got my new set, all 2 degrees up, and never felt comfortable with the short irons.

 

[LOS]

Honestly, the only fitting I've ever had used the 6 iron method and the specs suggested 2 degrees upright through the set. Based on nothing more than common sense, I feel like every club should be fitted. I got my new set, all 2 degrees up, and never felt comfortable with the short irons.

Were all your sets from the same OEM Dennis? There doesn't seem to be a Std set of specs between OEM'S so I wouldn't have thought it advisable to continually get 2* upright for all your sets if you are swopping OEM's.
 Our Pro has recently had a Srixon/Cleveland Demo day and , I transgressed, ordered a 60* RTX3 wedge.
Specs on the site:-




60* Loft  9* Bounce    64* Lie  35" long ( my Pro assured me this was with grip on)

T7 Wedge

60* Loft  10* Bounce  63* Lie  35.25" long ( usual Mizuno with grip off)

1* diff in lie might not be much but the T7 is 1/2" longer with a grip on.

I ordered the RTX to the same length and lie as my Mizuno wedges.

Vokeys use the same length and lie for the 60* wedge but their 54* wedge is 1/8" longer than the RTX3

 

[DennisMiller]

No, they were some Mizunos, one set bought new after a fitting and another set adjusted to my so called specs.

Some years before that, I was fitted in the PING system and that was a horrible experience. I was lucky to sell those irons and nearly get my money out of them.

A million years ago in college, I drove up to Cincinnati to the MacGregor plant. They measured me mostly with a tape measure, looking at things like my posture, the length of my legs and arms and a bit less actually watching me swing clubs. That set was amazing. I hit it well from the minute I picked them up. The thing is, I don't know anyone who does a fitting that way anymore and I don't know if it was valid or a happy accident it turned out so well.